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Post 460

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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James-

Whatever ARI is guilty of, its opponents have time and again convinced me that they are no better.
This is an evasion, not an answer to Robert's question.


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Post 461

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:07pmSanction this postReply
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O.K., Jody, let's make a deal here. If you address the substance of my book, I will address whatever specific allegations you want to make about ARI to the best of my limited knowledge.

You first.

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Post 462

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:11pmSanction this postReply
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James, the book is done and it's out there. It's beginning to pick up steam with word of mouth and it will continue to do so. These things take time. It looks to me like you've achieved your goal.

You're not gonna change anyone's mind here by bickering.


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Post 463

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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Lance,

First, great mug shot, dude!

Really, my offer was sincere, but I will take your sound advice and sign off for a while.

Post 464

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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James-

O.K., Jody, let's make a deal here. If you address the substance of my book, I will address whatever specific allegations you want to make about ARI to the best of my limited knowledge.

You first.

For one thing, I did not make specific allegations about ARI (please, oh please show me where I did) you were asked a specific question regarding ARI, and (2) this is your response to any criticism:  "Buy my book and then I'll respond!"  I know you are in the midst one big sales campaign here, but I'm not easily sold.  Yours along with every other book out there about Rand, including N.B.'s, would not sell a god-damned copy if the benifits went to a guaranteed remedy for mortality if it were not for the coat-tails of Ayn Rands name.  Don't try to sell me.  Answer the question.


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Post 465

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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You guys all have wax in your ears. (And no that's not an ad hominem attack -- I don't literally mean you have waxy substance in your ears so we must stop listening to your arguments -- I'm suggesting that the content of your claims is unrelated to what has been said.)

All these posts addressed to me assume I said something I never said (that there is no non-ad hominem Rand criticism -- never said it, mainly because it hasn't come up on this thread, I certainly don't believe it, and I would be the last person to bring up such an irrelevant point, if only in order to avoid the loop of straw-man bashing that has transpired here while I was out sharing a bottle of Pinot with a lovely girl!) or they cite a couple of Rand's scathing criticisms of the faults in other philosopher's philosophies that are simply not ad hominem attacks. (When Rand claims that a mind that rejects logic is small, that would apply to anyone who believed that, it's NOT just a personal insult aimed at Emerson as a way of avoiding the content of his claim. On the other hand, when someone claims the content of Rand's ideas are not worth consideration because of a laundry list of personality traits alleged by the Brandens, THAT'S ad hominem, folks. (Now if Rand said something like Emerson's brain was known to weigh only 12 ounces and therefore we need not consider his ideas, THAT would be an ad hominem attack.Get it?)

Really, you guys think every time Rand uses a harsh word it's automatically ad hominem.  But ad hominem means AGAINST THE MAN not AGAINST THE IDEA. You can use the ugliest language imaginable against an idea, and it still would not be an ad hominem attack. The practical application of the idea that logic and the art of non-contradiction are not important, for example, is the grave limitation of the scope and efficacy of the human mind -- something Rand knew and argued exhaustively in Atlas Shrugged. To call the rejection of logic small-minded is philosophically incisive (and cleverly uses Emerson's own ad hominem in a philosophic way, something he didn't bother to do -- he just insulted people who are logical!) She was not merely insulting Emerson as a person in order to get out of thinking about his idea. The idea is what she's attacking by pointing out its intellectual effect. I happen to agree with her. The rejection of logic IS small-minded, by definition -- what could shrink the human mind more? Perhaps you don't agree, and that may be the problem here, come to think of it.

And if you guys want to talk about ARI, go for it. It just doesn't have anything to do with this thread that I can see. Same goes for all the cites of non-ad hominem Rand criticism, since no one ever claimed that such criticism does not exist in the first place.

(Edited by Casey Fahy on 9/22, 11:45pm)


Post 466

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:04amSanction this postReply
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Andy: “Is your point that a person should never ever change his position on anything, even when he encounters facts that require him to consider a subject anew?”

No. It’s inevitable that when we reappraise a relationship that there will be some “rewriting” of history. That’s an acceptable facet of being human.

Perhaps I was being overly sarcastic. I just find it interesting the way that the Rand/Branden affair acts as a point of difference between the two major factions of Objectivism.

For ARIans, the matter is straightforward: The Brandens were blackguards who deceived the innocent and benevolent Rand. So when it comes to rewriting history, the non-Arian who once thought highly of the Brandens, but then comes to believe they are blackguards, will have to tread a fine line in explanation lest he appears to fall into the ARIan camp.

Brendan


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Post 467

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:20amSanction this postReply
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Linz will come to whatever conclusion he comes to.

James did, also, and so did I and in our case we've certainly found out how easy it is to be called ARIans. You know, the dirty little secret here is that "ARIan" has become an ad hominem slur that is employed in order to distract people from dealing with the merits of the argument and the evidence supporting it.
 
Isn't THAT ironic...


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Post 468

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:33amSanction this postReply
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"(When Rand claims that a mind that rejects logic is small, that would apply to anyone who believed that, it's NOT just a personal insult aimed at Emerson as a way of avoiding the content of his claim. On the other hand, when someone claims the content of Rand's ideas are not worth consideration because of a laundry list of personality traits alleged by the Brandens, THAT'S ad hominem, folks. (Now if Rand said something like Emerson's brain was known to weigh only 12 ounces and therefore we need not consider his ideas, THAT would be an ad hominem attack.Get it?)" [Casey]


See how it works? When I say that so and so is an ass, it plainly is not ad hominem so long as the same applies to anyone who likewise behaves as an ass. But when I say that so and so is an ass, and a link to alleged assedness can be traced to the Brandens—well now, *that* is ad hominem!


Edited to put Casey's priceless quote before my comment.



(Edited by Jon Letendre
on 9/23, 12:47am)


Post 469

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:58amSanction this postReply
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Jon writes:
>Edited to put Casey's priceless quote before my comment.

Jon, this is just the sort of evil idea an evading, anti-life creep would come up with!

Note that I am criticising your idea not you personally. Why, that would be ad hominem!

- Daniel

Post 470

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:26amSanction this postReply
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No offense, Daniel. Really, no offense. *Any* creep who dares to note that Rand engaged in ad hominem is subject to your criticism, I can see that. Hell, you could say that it only takes me two beers before I’m out there banging sheep—I fully realize that this applies to *anyone* for whom sheep banging is only two beers away—it’s nothing personal, I’m a logical person.

Jon


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Post 471

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 1:47amSanction this postReply
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Here's Emerson's quote with a little of the context around it:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood?"

This was referenced by Rand in her speech "Philosophy: Who Needs It?" The context is how ideas effect everyone.

Rand did not quote this in her speech, she referred to it while listing the sources of many influential ideas thus:

"Some people might answer: 'Sure, I've said those things at different times, but I don't have to believe that stuff all of the time. It may have been true yesterday, but it's not true today.' They got it from Hegel. They might say: 'Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.' They got it from a very little mind, Emerson. They might say: 'But can't one compromise and borrow different ideas from different philosophies according to the expediency of the moment?' They got it from..."

Is Rand referring to the smallness of Emerson's IQ or the smallness of his ideas? I would say that the context is rather important in considering that question.

Now, in contrast to this, here's an excerpt from the quote that started this thread, from Commentary:

“When Rand was sixty-one and Branden thirty-six, the sexual fire went out for him and he found a younger lover.  Rand nearly went insane in her jealousy.  Maintaining that she was entirely reasonable and right, and Branden purely evil, she destroyed his professional reputation and banished him from the Randian kingdom where he had been until then the crown prince.  Heroic reason, heroic freedom, heroic love ended, as they began, in folly.”



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Post 472

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Brendan,
I just find it interesting the way that the Rand/Branden affair acts as a point of difference between the two major factions of Objectivism.
I do too.  I've never had a dog in that fight, but still I stumbled into it when in this forum I was dismissive of something Branden had written.  Thus, I was labeled a partisan in a battle I had taken no side in.  I'm still scratching my head over that one.
So when it comes to rewriting history, the non-Arian who once thought highly of the Brandens, but then comes to believe they are blackguards, will have to tread a fine line in explanation lest he appears to fall into the ARIan camp.

I suspect that this "non-Arian" will not worry about the fine lines and will simply speak his mind.  After all, I think we can agree that these particular fine lines matter only to those who are obsessed with simplifying their world by dropping people into rigid categories.

 

Andy


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Post 473

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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James,

My aim has been not to get into close analysis of your book on this thread.  PARC is primarily about the character of Ayn Rand, and the character of Nathaniel and Barbara Branden.

I'd prefer to keep the focus on what you also say is the more important matter: Ayn Rand's ideas and responsible appreciation or criticism of them.

However, you keep right on claiming that I haven't read your book carefully, so I will address two points here:

(1) I referred to Jerome Tuccille's 1971 book, It Usually Starts with Ayn Rand, to show that Tuccille has been playing fast and loose with the facts about Rand and her associates for 34 years.  Back then, the prime source for his caricature of Rand appears to have been Murray Rothbard, though he was obviously taking liberties even with what Rothbard told him.

By mentioning only Tuccille's recent biography of Alan Greenspan (see Larry Sechrest's unflattering review of it in the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies) and not his 1971 book, PARC gives the impression that Tuccille needed the Brandens' books to incite him to hatchet-jobbery.  Er no, he obviously didn't.  His animus against Rand, and his preference for satire or lampoon over reporting where she is concerned, were well documented 15 years before NB and BB's books were published.

(2) Your pages 1 and 2 just don't do all that good a job of clarifying the boundaries between responsible and irresponsible criticisms of Rand--or between hatchet-jobs on Rand written before the Brandens' books came out, and hatchet-jobs written afterward.

The single quote you provide, on pp. 1-2, from James Arnt Aune, alludes to three charges against Rand.  The third is about her private life.  It could not have been made before Barbara Branden's book was published. 

The first and second are that Randians remain fixated in adolescence, and that Rand was authoritarian.  Those two charges were widely made before there were any public revelations of Rand's affair with Nathaniel Branden.

Now, just what do the Brandens' books have to do with the charge of arrested development?

The Brandens did, of course, charge Rand with authoritarianism, and you devote considerable effort to refuting them on that score.

But suppose (as I assume you would maintain) that every anecdote that's ever been told about Rand's alleged authoritarian attitudes is exaggerated or obviously false or merely untrustworthy.  Then the inquiry needs to turn to her published writings and recorded speeches... which is presumably what you think ought to be done in any case.

Now, back to the ARI business.

No doubt you are grateful to ARI for selling your book.

And I agree with you that LFB ought to be selling your book.  I'm not intending this as a left-handed compliment... but they've sold Jeff Walker's book, so precisely on what grounds would they exclude PARC?

However, ARI is a significant institutional presence in Rand-land; ARI has a distinctive agenda regarding Rand scholarship, particularly the kind that is done by non-Peikovians, or that is critical of any of Rand's ideas; and you say that serious appreciation and discussion of those ideas is what you after.

So it won't do to say that ARI is no worse than the rest.  Not when you haven't specified what bad things you believe other people or groups might have done, or what bad things you believe ARI and its principals might have done--or indicated why any negative impacts that might emanate from ARI, or from the others, aren't such a big deal.

What's more, ARI is widely viewed as, well, punitive in its treatment of Randians who criticize it in public.

I very much understand why you may prefer to keep quiet about ARI, and keep the focus on your book.  But that isn't going to make the ARI question go away.

Robert Campbell

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 9/23, 7:32am)


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Post 474

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I'm not shocked that anybody might conclude that she believed that she owed them big, even though the evidence is scanty and open to interpretation, as you acknowledge.

What I am shocked by is the idea that anyone would claim that "she had to know," because such a claim amounts to reading her mind.

I go on in that post to point out a couple of other interpretations that are, I believe, equally plausible.

I note in passing that the car reference is to be found only in Barbara's book and reflects the feelings of  Minna Goldberg long after the fact. One can only speculate what "to be remembered" meant to Minna, as one can only speculate about Rand's reaction to Minna's evidently unexpressed reservations about Rand's presence in Minna's home. Had they been expressed I can only believe, given Rand's attitude toward honesty and sacrifice, that she would have found a way to leave. If they were not expressed, but Rand found out about them later, I can imagine the kind of reaction Rand would have had. Part of that reaction, I'm pretty certain, might have been a failure to communicate.  In short, she would have viewed all such help as a trade, not out of any conceit at some special value she had, but as a reflection of her family's feelings for her, not qua the future Ayn Rand, but qua Alice Rosenbaum. Any hint that the family considered it in any way a sacrifice on her terms, would have been anathema to her. And there is lots of evidence for that; her entire moral code says so.

Finally, this is not about the silly business of whitewashing flaws. It is about the package deal engendered by the use of the word "flaw" to cover everything from skin blemishes to moral blemishes. It is about omitting the non-essential. Perhaps it has something to do with a concept the culture has long forgotten -- the idea of one's life as the creation of a work of art. Not in the sense of lying about the reality of the minor blemishes, but in the sense of considering them so minor as to be not worthy of mention. If you know Rand's discussion of the painting of a woman with a cold-sore perhaps you will get my context. It was that context which I tried to convey in my original "flaw" post.

And if people want to laugh at Objectivism because of that, they can feel free to do so. I've stopped worrying about it.

That's the end of anything I'm going to say on the subject.

Tom


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Post 475

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:19amSanction this postReply
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Casey,

Re: your post # 465, with respect, I believe you are trying too hard here.  You are defending Rand in a case where that is unnecessary.  There's nothing wrong with personal insults, mockery, and so forth, properly directed. -- See my article on SOLO, In Praise of Contempt. It isn't the 'lower part of our nature' that makes us thrill to such comments, but the recognition of (perceived) harmful ideas, persons, or actions being attacked in defense of beneficial ones.

(Whether Emerson qualifies is a slightly different issue; I'm inclined to doubt it, and I'm inclined to believe that Rand didn't have enough knowledge to make the claim, but let us set that aside.)  It's only when such comments are used as a substitute for argument that they become unacceptable.  That may, just barely, be true in the case of Rand's comment about Emerson (since she didn't write anything more about his philosophy, though she did write a small amount about Transcendentalism generally, that I can recall). She certainly said enough about the subject of logic and its value in human life to fulfill the requirement to address his idea.

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 9/23, 8:22am)

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 9/23, 8:25am)


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Post 476

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Jeff, I think you're right. I just wanted to provide the quotes so people could judge for themselves what hairsplitting was going on in Rand's case in order to establish some kind of equivalency between her and her critics -- though even that comparison, strained as it obviously is, seems to be intended to make the dubious point that since she (barely) dipped a toe in the waters of insult it somehow justifies the flood of ad hominem unleashed against her. Otherwise, I can't think of what point was being made by suggesting that "Ayn Rand did it, too!"

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Post 477

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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The answer was there, as Tom could see, but, since you seem to require greater simplicity: no, I did not re-interview the Brandens for my book. It would have been utterly senseless and repetitive.
 
Says you. It would've seemed more credible if you could say you requested an interview, and NB told you that.

Being human, he is subject to experience, information, recollection, and reflection. He acknowledged that condition by revising up into My Years With Ayn Rand.

It is very common for a writer, heck, for a person, to do such things. It shows that they are concerned with authenticity.

It is even possible that someday you might end up doing so with your own work.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/23, 10:27am)


Post 478

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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(Whether Emerson qualifies is a slightly different issue; I'm inclined to doubt it, and I'm inclined to believe that Rand didn't have enough knowledge to make the claim, but let us set that aside.) 

Bingo.

Say it ain't so, Joe.


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Post 479

Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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“Otherwise, I can't think of what point was being made by suggesting that "Ayn Rand did it, too!"” [Casey]

Didn’t it start with a challenge from you? Daniel posed a teaser and you responded, in post 431, “I can't think of any criticisms by Rand of other philosophers that were not about their philosophy.”

So, the point was helping you think up some examples.

Her remark about Emerson is funny. It’s a plain insult, not ad hominem. But it most certainly is an example of what you asked for: “[…] criticisms by Rand of other philosophers that were not about their philosophy.”

I’m amazed by your capacity for mental pretzels, Casey. Your answer to her Emerson remark is stunning: ‘Rejection of logic was part of his philosophy. Anyone who rejects logic has a little mind, by definition. Therefore the statement, “Emerson was a very little mind” is an elegant observation on Emerson’s philosophy.’ Priceless.

Jon


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