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Post 440

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Casey Fahy:
I can't think of any criticisms by Rand of other philosophers that were not about their philosophy.
I can easily. Many of her criticisms were not about their philosophy, but rather a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of it -- often gross -- or a straw man.


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Post 441

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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She wrote, “’Consistency is the hobgobblin of small minds.’ This was said by a very small mind, Emerson.”

Or something to that effect, in Philosophy, Who Needs It (I think.)


Post 442

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Casey:
>I can't think of her EVER saying something about their personal habits or behaviour as human beings.

What, like Kant being the "most evil man in history" or Hayek being a "complete, vicious bastard"?

Recall that you challenged:
>Try to think of a criticism of Ayn Rand's philosophy that is NOT an ad hominem attack.

And I responded with Nyquist's book. Have you not read it? Here is a sample:

(Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature, Introduction)
"Despite Rand's obvious importance as both a controversial polemicist and as an American cultural figure, her philosophy has largely escaped the scrutiny of a genuinely intelligent and penetrating criticism....As I will seek to demonstrate over the course of this book, Rand's philosophy is open to many serious objections. Rand was a surprisingly sloppy and even maladroit thinker who apparently believed that matters of fact can be determined by the manipulation of logical and rhetorical construction. Indeed, some of the most important doctrines of her philosophy are based on nothing more than a mere play on words..."

Of course, this could be taken as an ad hominem if Nyquist *did not then take an entire book to carefully demonstrate why these claims were true*. Of course unlike Nyquist, with Rand one only gets the ad hominem, and never the demonstration.

- Daniel

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Post 443

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

For everyone's information (I'll refrain from commenting on Nyquist's book, because I haven't read it):

Fred Seddon's review of Nyquist's book is indexed at

http://www.aynrandstudies.com/jars/v4_n2/4_2toc.asp

The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies is not available online.  Maybe someday...

Nyquist will probably be replying to Seddon's review in a future issue.

Robert Campbell

PS. I think it would help to provide examples of Rand being ad hominem in her reviews of other philosophers' ideas.  (Unless you just mean that she sometimes imputed malevolent motives to philosophers because she thought their ideas were particularly bad.)  That Rand was not terribly scholarly in her treatment of (most) other philosophers has been hashed over quite a bit and, in my opinion, is beyond challenging.  Here are two egregious examples: her review of reviews of A Theory of Justice by John Rawls, which she disdainfully announced she would not read, and her harsh dismissal (completely unexplicated in any of her published work) of Bertrand Russell's account of number (see the Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology).


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Post 444

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Fahy,

I have read a fair amount of work by ARI types and in it I've never seen a single word of criticism of Rand.  For example, Mayhew even goes out of her way to defend all her comments in the Marginalia.

Do you doubt that if an ARI scholar wrote a book that contained criticism of Rand's view of Kant or Hume that he would cease being an ARI scholar?


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Post 445

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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Robert writes:
>That Rand was not terribly scholarly in her treatment of (most) other philosophers has been hashed over quite a bit and, in my opinion, is beyond challenging.

Yes, and I agree it's certainly not worth re-rehashing it here!

Casey seems to be making the case that:
1) Due to the unassailability of her ideas, Ayn Rand's critics can only come up with ad hominems
2) These ad hominens were all invented and distrbuted by the Brandens

Therefore, as Jon Letendre said:
3)"If it weren’t for the Brandens, the whole world would be taking Rand’s ideas seriously today"

However, all three of the points are demonstrably false, which makes it a rather poor case indeed.

- Daniel

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Post 446

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

Lots of criticisms have been made of Rand's ideas that refrain from ad hominem comments about her.  I figured you would know about some of them, and wondered why you wouldn't provide any concrete examples.

Such criticisms have varied considerably in quality.  But many of them have come from people who think Rand's ideas are important and have studied them carefully and thoroughly.

Here's just one.  In his article "Rand on obligation and value," Douglas Rasmussen asked some tough questions about the "premoral choice to live."  The phrase belongs to Peikoff and his followers, but they have ample basis in Rand's text for asserting that all moral choices depend on a prior choice to live.

The article's indexed here:

http://www.aynrandstudies.com/jars/v4_n1/4_1toc.asp

I asked you whether you could identify any legitimate criticisms of Rand's ideas because there is a view, in some Randian circles, that any critique of Rand's ideas that goes beyond paring away a few of her "non-philosophical" opinions fails to understand those ideas, is ill-intentioned, or both.

And the rhetoric you were using is frequently employed by people who accept and promote that particular view.

Robert Campbell


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Post 447

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Jetton, I ask you to consider what I say to Mr. Letendre below.

Mr. Letendre, my beef with Rand's quotation is that it actually reads, if memory serves, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." However, it does reveal an attitude towards logic that is most disturbing. Of course, integrity to a dumb idea leads to disaster. This not the fault of logic or principles as such, but the sign of an error in that idea or principle. This attitude bespeaks a narrow, or, in Rand's words, a "little" mind. Yes, Rand does speak in bold, broad and colorful terms, but only a little patience reveals the argument within. If you can read scholarly prose, it's not too too difficult, either.

Does anyone consider Emerson's slam here on those who insist on logic? Or just Rand's on him?

Mr. Barnes I would only ask that you distinguish between Rand's published words and her privately expressed thoughts. A big difference in my view. Also, this was not ad hominem, Casey's point.

But why Mr. Parille insists on discussing ARI in this context I still do not understand.

Mr. Campbell, I know how Rawls must've felt, believe me.

(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 9/22, 7:19pm)


Post 448

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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James,

Sorry to keep harping, but I am having a real hard time being understood. I asked,

Did you interview any of the members still living of the Collective?

You answered in Post 145:

... no, I did not re-interview the Brandens for my book.

I didn't ask if you interviewed or re-interviewed the Brandens.

Non-answer again.

Michael


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Post 449

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

The first answer was nothing resembling a non-answer. It answered both the question you first asked and the one another had asked. Now, no more hints -- you can do it!

(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 9/22, 7:22pm)


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Post 450

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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James,

I doubt that you would accept that kind of evasive talk in a courtroom.

To me, still non-answer.

Michael


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Post 451

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

Do forgive me. Casey's out on a date right now, unable to defend himself, so I thought that I might give it the same gusto he always gives it when defending me. And, as you can sense, I am a bit weary of sounding like a broken record, something I never have to do in court, but must here, it seems.

My conversations with Peikoff were of great assistance, and I won't say who else refused, but, otherwise, the answer to your question is no. As I said before (twice before now?), by its nature this project did not require more than the already-existing material. Please read the relevant posts above.


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Post 452

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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“Yes, Rand does speak in bold, broad and colorful terms, but only a little patience reveals the argument within.” [Mr. Valliant]

Got that everyone? When Rand engages in ad hominem, such as saying of another human being that he *is* a very little mind, it’s merely “colorful.” There is an argument within, so it isn’t ad hominem.


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Post 453

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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James,

As I noted in my latest response to Casey, I disagree with your assessment here:
"Legitimate, responsible" criticism of Objectivism is very hard to find, indeed, and, of course, it depends upon what you mean by a "critic."
It isn't that hard to find.  Are the published criticisms of Rand's ideas by, say, Tibor Machan, Eric Mack, Doug Rasmussen, Kirsti Minsaas, Roger Bissell, and Louis Torres and Michelle Marder Kamhi all illegitimate and irresponsible?
The real critics, many of whom I cite in my book, like Tuccille (that is, his recent work), Walker, and now our friend from COMMENTARY, and the like, do rely heavily on the Brandens -- if they often also embark on their own excursions into fantasy and distortion.
Actually, Tuccille played fast and loose in It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand, published over 30 years ago... More to the point, though, you seem to be saying that "real critics" are people who indulge in crude hatchet-jobbery.

In another post farther up the thread you asked who else besides Ayn Rand has been subjected to so much unscholarly treatment.  No question, her ideas have been mercilessly distorted by many who have tried to discredit them.  But this phenomenon is more common than you seem to think.  Herbert Spencer died in 1903, and has had no disciples for 3, maybe 4 generations, yet outrageous distortions of his ideas are still given currency by people who would be much more careful in their treatment of other thinkers.  Jean Piaget is a 20th century figure whose ideas have often been shamefully misrepresented, even though most of his published work is about cognitive development, his moral views were far less troubling to academics in the humanities and social sciences than Rand's have been, and he wrote scarcely a word about politics.

Another "critic" I cite in my book, Chris Sciabarra, whatever one thinks of his work, belongs in completely different category. This is something I hope is also clear from my book.

I appreciate your saying this, as I appreciate your willingness to participate in the comment section under his review of your book on Notablog.

But this brings us back to the ARI question, which you deflected in a previous post on this thread.

As far as I'm concerned, what the principals at ARI think about Ayn Rand scholarship has been made eminently clear, through words or through actions.  What's more, Tom Rowland has been rather reliably presenting the official line from ARI, right on this thread.   There isn't a whole lot more to be learned, by asking the people who run ARI about its policies or its social norms.

For instance: I assume you know that The Russian Radical has been officially pronounced a "worthless book" (in a review by John Ridpath in an ARI-affiliated publication).  I assume you also know that the current penalty for publishing in the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies is ostracism or expulsion from ARI.  I don't think that I am jumping to conclusions when I note that works by the scholars that I previously mentioned are simply not cited in print by ARI-affiliated scholars. Or that the alleged philosophical errors, if any, in David Kelley's book about perception have never been mentioned in public by anyone affiliated with ARI, yet that book has ceased to be cited.

Since your declared values, as well your conduct toward Chris Sciabarra, appear to run counter to the strictures promoted by ARI, I think your frank assessment of that organization and its institutional culture would make a particularly significant contribution to this thread.

Robert Campbell


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Post 454

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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James,

But why Mr. Parille insists on discussing ARI in this context I still do not understand.
ARI is selling your book.  Given ARI's, how shall we say it, highly exclusive practices, that sure looks like an endorsement.   Recently, a former participant on this board publicly credited your book as the inspiration for her decision to join ARI.  Others already affiliated with ARI happily cite PARC as proof that ARI is the only way for Randians to go.
Mr. Campbell, I know how Rawls must've felt, believe me.
I can hardly blame you for complaining about comments on your book from people who haven't read it.

My sympathy would be all the greater, however, had Casey and The Magenta Hornet not both alleged, without a shred of evidence, that I haven't read your book.  They seem to think that anyone who reads PARC and pays close attention to what it says must agree with every conclusion that you draw in it.

I've read the whole thing with considerable care, and may comment on some of it later.

But my focus here is not on Rand's character and actions--or, for that matter, on Nathaniel and Barbara Branden's character and actions.  It's on what NB and BB's books have purportedly distracted so many people from, namely, the careful examination of Rand's ideas.

In your opinion, is the Ayn Rand Institute promoting the careful examination of Rand's ideas--or standing in the way of it--or maybe even doing some of each?  Since it matters to you whether proper attention is being paid to Ayn Rand's ideas, surely it matters to you what kind of contribution ARI is making to that reception.

Robert Campbell


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Post 455

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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Robert C.-

In your opinion, is the Ayn Rand Institute promoting the careful examination of Rand's ideas--or standing in the way of it--or maybe even doing some of each?

This is a hit-the-nail-on-the-head-question and one that deserves to stand alone...also one that deserves an answer.

(Edited by Jody Allen Gomez on 9/22, 9:25pm)


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Post 456

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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James writes:
>Mr. Barnes I would only ask that you distinguish between Rand's published words and her privately expressed thoughts.

But why should I do that, when her own estate does not?

- Daniel

Post 457

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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James,

Thanks. Finally.

That didn't hurt, now, did it?

(I didn't understand the part about defending Casey at all... Who's attacking him? I'm not following this thread all that closely.)

Michael


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Post 458

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Campbell,

In Tuccille's more recent book on Greenspan, which I cite, he also plays "fast and loose." Did you miss that in your careful reading? You do seem to have missed much -- like "that qualification" you asserted was nowhere made, but really was. I think that's what caused them concern...

MSK,

It didn't even hurt the first time.

To One and All,

Barnes & Noble is also selling my book, and Lord knows why LaissezFaire is not. Open-mindedness and tolerance to what Sciabarra thinks is "required reading"?

I did not research the problems with ARI, so I cannot speak to them. Sorry. I am aware of the skepticism of many there regarding my book. And you guys seem to know a great deal, so I defer to your expertise.

Yes, I know what Lennox and Ridpath have written about Sciabarra. My opinions are my own. Will only my denunciation of ARI do to allow me a hearing?

Whatever ARI is guilty of, its opponents have time and again convinced me that they are no better.

(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 9/22, 10:04pm)


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Post 459

Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Dr. Michael Shermer notes "Objectivism" as one of the weird things that people believe, and in fact devotes a whole chapter to it in his book Why People Believe Weird Things. The chapter quotes exclusively from both Brandens' books as evidence that Objectivism was "the most unlikely cult in history."

The book is an otherwise extraordinary tome debunking all sorts of modern myths and pseudo-science, but unfortunately the section on Objectivism relies solely on the Brandens' account. Unfortunately for me, this was my first exposure to Objectivism *EVER* and contributed to my (former) prejudice against all things Ayn Rand.

I think I should send him an email about James Valliant's book...

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