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Post 220

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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I may be wrong, but wasn't it Ayn Rand who "rolled out" Objectivism in a couple of successful novels? And, these days, Branden presents as a critic of Objectivism's several "hazards," such as its alleged "moralism."

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Post 221

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael-
I've been so busy I almost forgot about this little thread.  As I agree with much of what you said, it actually sent my mind down another street which is:  I heard rumors that the passage of CAFTA could pave the way to behind-the-counter vitamins and dietary supplements.  I have to say that though I think a lot of people take a daily dose of gullible pills, I do not ever want to see the likes of Centrum or vitamin C requiring a prescription.  Perhaps our friends from across the pond can comment upon this, as I understand that they are facing this prescription vitamin nonsense.

Regarding homeopathy-
 (btw - Your questions were extremely general, somewhat akin to asking how many words are in a book.)

I think that questioning the exact amount of "poison" in a rememdy is not general at all, but is germane to science and objective truth.  One reason I bring this up, is that due to the dilution methods of homeopathy it has been estimated that the probability of finding a single molecule of the offensive substance in a 50,000 gallon pool full of the inactive ingredients is slim-to-none.  This was marvelously demonstrated by James Randi before the U.S. Congress.  Though I disagree with him regarding regulation, his demonstration was poigniant and humorous.  He took a bottle of homeopathic rememdy that "contained" the poison arsenic, and despite the 3-per-day recommended dosage, he proceeded to eat the entire bottle without any ill consequences.


Post 222

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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I believe Branden's essay was titled "The Benefits and Hazards of Ayn Rand".  Not "The Benefits and Hazards of Objectivism".  -Steve

Post 223

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jody and Michael, ok specifically Michael.

I'd been meaning to bring this back up but I hadn't seen.  I was discussing A lot of the themes of this thread with Amy (my fiancee) and she brought up some great points to me.

Specifically she reminded me that the medical business is a BUSINESS.

One of the facts from history that's kept me most transfixed through the years is the story of Asprin.  Some Shamen knew that a method of relieving pain was to eat the bark of the willow tree.  They also believed that dancing and singing could create rain.  But years later western science studied this old idea, tested the chemicals in willow bark distilled the effective ingredients, and concentrated them and we now have Asprin.

The simple fact is that many of these remedies may have value but if they do, do you honestly think the drug companies wouldn't be the first to exploit them?

For all the conspiracy theories, most people in the medical field are just trying to find the right answers to hard questions.  They're not afraid of asking (even strange) questions, but they're also not afraid of the answers and where they lead.

---Landon


Post 224

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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My apologies, my mistake.  It was "The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand".  -Steve

Post 225

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Adam: "Over and out."

No, no, no, Adam! "Over" means I am done talking and it's your turn. "Out" means the conversation is "over." "Over and out" is a contradiction. Contradictions can't exist. Ergo, you don't exist!!(???)

Not sure about the last. Over and out.

--Brant

PS: Psychotherapists don't do background checks on their clients, generally, or probe them on their morals to find out if they are acceptable for therapy. Or did I miss something?


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Post 226

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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James S. Valliant wrote:
I may be wrong, but wasn't it Ayn Rand who "rolled out" Objectivism in a couple of successful novels? And, these days, Branden presents as a critic of Objectivism's several "hazards," such as its alleged "moralism."
Yes, he may be wrong. Probably is, it seems to me.

"Rolled out" connotes a public presentation/announcement of a product, program, etc., complete with name identification. (As in: "today the Ford Motor Company rolled out its new 2005 Focus and Escape models.")

It is an anachronism to refer to The Fountainhead as a work of Objectivism, or as being about Objectivism. Rand had not yet formulated her philosophy. This she did while writing Atlas Shrugged, which was published in 1957. However, she did not name her philosophy at that time, neither in the novel itself, nor in the "About the Author" section that followed the novel's text. This was not a "roll-out" of Objectivism.

Thanks to David Harriman's editing of Journals of Ayn Rand (1997), we know that Rand had decided upon the name of her philosophy no later than June 8, 1958, the entry for which presented the preface of a projected book Objectivism: A Philosophy for Living on Earth. Since it was entirely personal and private, however, this was not a "roll-out" of Objectivism either.

Rand first publicly referred to her philosophy by name in 1961 in For the New Intellectual. This book excerpted Galt's Speech, which was retitled: "This is John Galt Speaking. This is the Philosophy of Objectivism." She gave the first non-fiction presentation of her philosophy in 1962 in her column for the L.A. Times entitled "Introducing Objectivism."

However, the "roll-out" of Objectivism had already occurred several years previously, in 1958, when Nathaniel Branden first presented his public lectures "Basic Principles of Objectivism."

Attempting to airbrush away this undeniable fact is yet another way in which ARI partisans engage in their Orwellian rewriting of history. (Another, my favorite actually, is the editing of the tape of the radio broadcast of the discussion of Rand's lecture "Our Esthetic Vacuum," so as to erase the identity of John Hospers and the existence of Barbara Branden.)

Two final points: as usual, Mr. Valliant presents only what he considers as putting Branden in a bad light. He carefully ignores the fact that Branden's talk/essay was called "The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand." It was an attempt to bring some balance to his own public advocacy of Objectivism, to say, "You have to be careful how you use this philosophy." He, more than most people, was in a position to know how people had misinterpreted and misused the philosophy in the past, and he wanted to help his readers to avoid what he thought were some of the worst misuses of Objectivism. Thus, the ascription by Valliant and others of heinous, deliberately destructive motives to Branden is uncalled for.

Also, like all other tools, physical or cognitive, Rand's philosophy can be used for good or evil. Objectivism does not have a special exemption from this principle. Like a firearm, like alcohol, like an automobile, like a table fork, like a paperweight, like a Kleenex, etc., there are benefits and hazards to the philosophy of Ayn Rand. Mr. Valliant and his allies may disagree with the particular hazards that Branden enumerates and discusses in his talk/essay -- and they may be right! -- but they cannot deny that there are hazards involved in Objectivism. (One of them is rationalism, as Leonard Peikoff makes clear in Understanding Objectivism and subsequent lecture series.) The sooner they admit this and get clear on what those hazards are from their perspective, the sooner they can move on to something more productive than bashing Branden for his (supposed) errors on the matter.

REB


Post 227

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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Response seems beside the point for Roger Bissell who has already somehow divined that my motives involve malice, that they are "heinous," (how intolerant and judgmental!) for the presumption of questioning the motives of one who actually behaved despicably towards Ayn Rand. Branden's own motives in painting so vividly the negative aspects of what I repeatedly describe in my book as his "mixed" portrait of Rand are--objectively--dubious, and this will be obvious to future historians, whose first concern is ever to establish the motives and biases of our sources.

It has long been said that Rand's defenders have been the fawning cultists--there are those, for this reason alone, who object to my having paid any attention to the Brandens--but it is clear that Branden himself enjoys this kind of devotion.

But for others: in the course of this thread, Branden's defenders have utterly glossed over the "hazards" part of Mr. Branden's analysis of Objectivism, often seeming to ignore the fact that Mr. Branden is a critic of the philosophy that Ayn Rand articulated, including its approach to moral judgment.

Our primary sources for the substance of Objectivism are Rand's novels along with her essays on ethics and epistemology. The philosophy existed before it was named. It was articulated, if not completely, in THE FOUNTAINHEAD, the book that changed Mr. Branden's life. It was heralded and taught by Mr. Branden--its first explicator apart from Rand--but it was certainly not first presented by him. As Rand often said, Galt's Speech is the essence of Objectivism.

I will concede the nuances of the term "rolled out," if it assuages, but, even here, it is Rand who gave the philosophy its name, not Branden. Perhaps his lectures, among other things, first announced this name to the world, to give that credit where it is due.

For those making lists of the defining fundamentals of the philosophy, let me suggest that we pick-up on Rand's not-so-subtle clue here about her own philosophy, the essence of which requires more than an outline or list to articulate--even if it is also much less than every one of Rand's expressed opinions.


(Edited by James S. Valliant
on 8/30, 10:53pm)


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Post 228

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:59pmSanction this postReply
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It is a duty of an Objectivist to be a critic of Objectivism.

--Brant


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Post 229

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Landon,

I did not want to sidetrack this thread (nor my other plans right now). But here are a few very quick comments.

I will grant you that medicine is a business. Drug companies are too. The problem occurs not with this concept, but when a very small number of companies become so large that they get in bed with governments and try to keep their cash cows alive and healthy by not allowing competition.

After you have a structure in place that is generating oodles of money, you don't want to change it, because that would entail too many costs and inconveniences (including retraining everybody in your own structure and completely overhauling it). Simply put, bribes are cheaper.

Here is a good example of what I am talking about. In the 70's, Brazil started widely using alcohol for automobile fuel along with gasoline. I have owned several cars that run on alcohol and they were wonderful (except for the very first one, when there were bugs about starting on cold days and things like that - but they were eventually worked out). The advantages of this fuel over fossil fuels were tremendous, especially as regards cost of production, renewability and pollution. The major oil companies screamed bloody murder, of course, and through their lobbies in the government, managed to make it just as expensive for the final consumer as gasoline through taxes. Even so, the idea spread and now in Brazil all gas stations have at least one alcohol pump (usually half and half).

(In typical Brazilian fashion, many people are now running cars on bottled gas that is jerry-hooked into the fuel structure by illicit specialized mechanics.)

Why has the alcohol idea not spread like it did in Brazil to the rest of the world? It is extremely profitable and works.

I have not researched the following, but I have come across an accusation time and time again that the major oil companies (7 sisters) have bought up patents for alternative fuel and energy sources over the years and shelved them. According to what I have read, the reasoning was that it was vastly cheaper to pay a few million dollars to an inventor and sit on an invention than to undermine the fossil fuel profits structure.

The problem is government protection. This is one of the major drawbacks of drug companies also. As a matter of fact, when an FDA official retires from the government, guess where he goes for a nice fat salary and sinecure (which means do-nothing job)? You guessed it. Drug companies. Now why would the drug companies hire these guys like that to do nothing but advise? Because they were such good government regulators? Hmmmmmmmm...

I am only going from memory, but I believe that now it costs about 80 million dollars (or 180 million dollars - I can't remember right now) to get an FDA license for a new drug. How's that for squelching competition and making a good argument for not expanding to non-addictive drugs? Notice that there is one overriding characteristic to the new drugs I have seen advertised since I have been back to the USA. They are designed so that they need to be used for the rest of your life. They do not cure - they temporarily alleviate.

There are many variables in this issue - not just a lack of understanding that medicine is a business. Well maybe. Too many of those in medicine appear to not really understand that the field is a business, not a branch of the government.

Michael


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Post 230

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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Michael,
Why has the alcohol idea not spread like it did in Brazil to the rest of the world? It is extremely profitable and works.
Fossil fuels are very compact sources of energy.  To replace them with alcohol would mean turning over all of agriculture from the production of food and fiber to the production of fuel.  Besides alcohol is not "extremely profitable" as a fuel.  That's why U.S. agribusiness lobbies the federal government to subsidize the production of ethanol and big farm states like Iowa force gasoline stations to sell it.

There is a reason why fossil fuels dominate the world energy market.  They are profitable and they work.  The only serious competition to them is the production of electricity with nuclear power, which the federal government has successfully squelched that in its kow-tow to environmentalists.

End of thread hijacking.

Andy


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Post 231

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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James V:  I may be wrong, but wasn't it Ayn Rand who "rolled out" Objectivism in a couple of successful novels? And, these days, Branden presents as a critic of Objectivism's several "hazards," such as its alleged "moralism."
 
The NBI was the teaching arm of Objectivism. You know the history, James. The novels were unique in that they presented a groundbreaking philosophy inside of novels. What Branden did was a true rollout. He took the philosophy to the people in the form of teaching. The novels would not have satisfied needs such as clarifying Objectivism's position on the five branches of philosophy, for instance. In fact, there are people who resonate from the novels, feel reaffirmed from the novels, but are unsure of next steps. One of those steps is concretizing their understanding of philosophy. This is simply true. By way of example, I happened to walk into the office next to mine, and saw our corporate attorney there, working on some things. He had his 14 year old daughter in tow with him, and I was pleased to see she was passing her time reading a battered copy of The Fountainhead (I always love these moments, it gives you a rush). So of course I asked her a few things, told her about myself, etc. As it turned out, she had started out by reading Anthem, then Atlas, and was now on The Fountainhead. I asked her if she was aware that a purpose of the books beyond being great novels was to delineate a newer philosophy known as Objectivism. She had no clue. We talked more, and I asked her what she knew of philosophy. She had read a few things (smart young girl that she was). I happened to have a copy of Introduction to the Five Branches of Philosophy (which I had printed from www.importanceofphilosophy.com/FiveBranchesMain.html ) sitting around, so I gave her that, as well as (much to your chagrin, perhaps) a copy of NB's The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand. Additionally, I had an old paperback copy of The Virtue of Selfishness to loan her. I pointed her to www.nathanielbranden.net , told her that she was of an age where it might be useful to explore what self-esteem is, and what it is not.

That is teaching, that is rolling out. Yes, Ayn Rand rolled out the philosophy via a novel, but there is other work to be done at that point, and it is significant.
Many times I have spoken with people who read the novels, and saw much of it as self-apparent, but it did not stick with them that hard because there was no structure in back of it that was readily available to them.

In terms of NB "presenting", absolutely. I would never speak for him, but what he has said seems obvious to me. He was one of the doers in that department back then, and he clearly regrets the court-holding, and harshness. Maybe he thinks it is ineffective. I think it is fair to say that he is commenting from the standpoint of lessons learned, and also directing some of it specifically within the confines of the Objectivist community itself. I happen to agree with him, because I see the behavior.




Post 232

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Maybe a better way to talk about the thread on homeopathy is to talk about the dreaded "wholistic" medicine world itself. Clearly, it is rife with charlatans, as is pretty much anything out there in business these days. However, there are points to be made. For one, herbalism. Michael was talking about things in terms of small applied doses of "poisons", and to an extent there is truth in what he says. But, that is far from the whole picture. There are several reasons pharmaceutical companies weren't up front in promoting natural cures. One is that there is a strong cost involved in material acquistion and processing (and, one that sits very outside of the production model involved when manufacturing synthetics- this is forgivable, they aren't geared up for or generally used to that process). As an aside, you might notice that once it broke out publicly, a lot of people jumped hard on the bandwagon, to varying degress of honesty, and purity. Another aside is that there are cases where synthetics were modeled after herbs. A good example would be how Valium was modeled from Valerian root (which is pretty useful stuff, by the way).

A common misconception is that the goal of non-western medicine is to replace, and this is not the case, at least for those who think clearly. The better position is to use what works, whatever that is. Often, this means the position of herbalism and wholistic approaches such as accupuncture, or Rekki,  say, are that of providing augmentation.

Eastern medicine is based around creating (or recreating) balance within the human system, using whatever means are available. This approach is very different than what once was the uniform Western medicine approach, which was basically break-fix. Many aspects of the wholistic approach have now been embraced by Western medicine, mainly because they work, and also provide a more macro view of the body as a self-contained system. This is why we now here more about not treating the disease, but the whole patient.

It is not reasonable to dismiss non-Western, non-pharmacy cures en large.


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Post 233

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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Adam:

 Rich,

No, I don't "get your drift." I just don't "get drifts." Over and out.

 
Well, if you don't, you don't. I can't help that- I've framed it over and over. I normally don't have much trouble communicating with people. I will count you as an exception. Perhaps someday I will improve my craft in order to better suit your listening style. I've asked you several questions, and the most pregnant one was answered with "context, etc.".

I will no longer press you, although I am convinced that somehow you should have gotten at least a piece of it, if only via sheer statistical density.  

Best Regards,
rde






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Post 234

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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Roger, Rich and others,

You argue reason with a man who has an agenda where reason is not the priority.

His priority is a metaphorical "court" wherein he is some kind of super-lawyer defending Ayn Rand. Sort of an attempt to find a scapegoat for the fact that Objectivism has not caught on with the masses yet.

Reason doesn't really enter the picture, except as an element to identify his "defendant," like tall or short, man or woman. Ayn Rand merely happened to have founded a philosophy based on reason. Mere detail. That does not mean that he has to use reason in "defending" her.

The strategy is to completely discredit the adversary, even where merit to the contrary is obvious. It is not to look at the issue in the light of reason, but instead in the light of complete bias. As I said, reason is not his premise. You can state the obvious all day long (like Nathaniel Branden not only gave the first public lessons in Objectivism, he also helped spread it over the years) and it will fall on deaf ears.

He wrote a huge book based on his "court" agenda and his (very small) public voice is too tied up in it for him to change.

He needs to win his case, dudes, not deal with truth. He needs to "demolish" Nathaniel Branden and Barbara Branden. His staked his reputation on it.

Reason is used only as a means of serving this priority, not the other way around.

I think you are wasting your time. This one ain't going anywhere different, regardless of the correctness of your observations.

Michael

Post 235

Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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Michael-

I think it's funny in the first place that he finally decloaked. . I hope he's not billing hours.

So, while we have you here, James- care to answer my original question about the book that I asked you oh so long ago? :) If you forget, you can always go back to the thread and refresh your memory. I think you'll remember, though, as I came just short of calling Clear Channel and having it put on a billboard outside of your office.

rde
Don't forget the Little People.


Post 236

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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Philip Coates,

On August 30, I wrote this post to you on this thread (Post 211).

I didn't expect a response, since I gave a personal creed, not an official Solo one. But a question has been growing in my mind since then.

When you wag your finger at people on Solo for not being civil, why don't you ever wag it at the trolls and idiots who sometimes show up here and spout off? Why only at the good guys?

Did I miss something?

Anyway, this is just a question... (but please tell me I'm wrong...)

Michael


Edit - Thanks Rich. Just for the record, I posted this before I read Linz's Executive Update and the Boring Old Fart Award. I just thought it was time to say something. LOLOLOLOLOL... Now I can't stop laughing.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 9/01, 9:13am)


Post 237

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Michael-

On first blush, I  took it at as kind of a general finger-wagging, but I think I get your drift<tm>.
 
The thing is that the whole wagging deal never seems to have much effect anyway, although I applaud any good intentions that may start it.

best,
rde
Turned over Valliant case to Dog The Bounty Hunter

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/01, 9:08am)

EDIT: Michael- I just did the same thing. That was just coming back from the Branden forum and finding that there is a ban on foul language. Fart on.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/01, 9:41am)


Post 238

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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Talk about sick and twisted malice--especially from a toad who incredibly boasts of his good treatment of others! Yeah, fart on, guys.

Post 239

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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Dayaamm MagHorny,

Are you growing a sense of humor? LOLOLOLOL...

I could have sworn you were here to poison people against the Brandens and make a stir for the Valliant book.

Now you get funny? LOLOLOLOL...

Sheeeeit, whaz happen, breeze?

Solo getting to ya?

Michael


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