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Post 200

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:17pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

It would be a significant amount work to untangle your subthread specifically or blow-by-blow (and would take us even more off-thread).

But usually in these conflicts (as there seems to have been over a much longer period of time in Kelley-Peikoff, and Reisman / Packer vs. Schwartz / Binswanger and all the broken relationships between Oists..and between Oists and the world) there is a gradual escalation, a slight personal attack or disrespect or discourtesy (or breach) leads to a responding put down or a lack of benevolence leads to a slightly greater one. And so on.

And very often both sides are responsible at least in part. Because, as in a schoolyard fight, it usually takes two: One party, or sometimes both, can usually ameliorate the situation or disentangle or walk away.

Hope that helps!

Phil


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 8/29, 9:52pm)


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Post 201

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Philip -

 

This is an interesting subject.  Could this have something to do with a flawed application of Objectivist ethics?  Could it be that Objectivists tend to regard reconciliation after petty emotionally driven squabbles as serious ethically unacceptable compromises?  While morally judging each other the two sides in such a dispute seem to pin upon the other side all manner of evils, such as "irrationality", "evasion", "social metaphysics" ect ect.   With the other side being guilty of such "moral depravity" a reconciliation is simply out of the question because to do so would be "sanctioning evil".   I'm certainly not saying that stern moral judgments do not have their proper place but could it be that Objectivists tend to overestimate their own moral stature during most of these instances of infighting while exaggerating the evil of the other side?

 

 - Jason


Post 202

Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:58pmSanction this postReply
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The important thing is that I am pure. Thank God! I mean, thank me! I mean, thank Rand!

--Brant

(Edited by Brant Gaede on 8/30, 12:00am)


Post 203

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:29amSanction this postReply
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Phil,
 Hope that helps!

Not a whole lot, but I do appreciate the response.

I was interested in doing what Jason brought up in Post #201 following yours.  I wanted to apply Objectivism, specifically the virtue of benevolence, to this discussion and see what lessons could be culled from doing so.  That is what I tried to do with Michael.  Instead of the "Christian" way of resolving a conflict -- you know, turn the other cheek, pretend insults don't matter, don't hold the other accountable -- in real life I found standing your ground when you know you're right while leaving the door open to futher interaction works well.  That way your potential adversary gains useful information.  He knows what you value, including discourse with him.

I tried that here but failed.  Of course that's going to happen sometimes.  You can't control the other guy.  No big deal.  Now that I think about it, I've spent too much time in this thread on what is basically minutia.

As for something other than minutia, let me comment on your belief that the exercise of the virtue of benevolence would bridge splits in Objectivism.  I'm not so sure about that.  Benevolence works well at the personal level.  But a large part of benevolence is the tolerance of differences.  So it would be good if everyone talked nicely about their differences, but the form of the discussion is not going to change its substance.

Then again, isn't that what the ancient art of rhetoric is all about?  Form invites attention to the logic of one's argument.

Hmm, it looks like you caught me in the cross-currents of thought here, Phil.  One of the hazards of writing on the fly.  Let me give your post more thought.

Andy


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Post 204

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Adam-

Take all the time you need. I will admit there were several questions. The most important one is simply what was the purpose you had to say what you said aregarding your reports of psychotherapists in California treating political activists who might be opoposed to Objectivist principles, and that it wouldn't suprise you if Nathaniel Branden had taken them as clients.

Why did you say it? I understand the what, not the why.

Phil: I agree with your comments.


Post 205

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:02amSanction this postReply
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At least now I know I won.

Post 206

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
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"could it be that Objectivists tend to overestimate their own moral stature during most of these instances of infighting while exaggerating the evil of the other side?"

Jason, I think there is a lot to what you say in your excellent post. I think there is more, but that's a real good start. A key is that Objectivists unlike most people have a very well-developed sense of right and wrong, of where the lines are, of what is offensive and what is not. These are all good things. But:

(1) When one is wishy-washy or in the middle on many things or has not thought through one's principles and values , the tendency is to err in the direction of anything goes ... or to err toward Subjectivism.
(2) When one possesses certainty, has a firm moral and epistemological code, has thought through one's values and principles and values in every area, one finds much more to strongly disagree about. And, unless one has thought about what constitutes honest error and about how to disagree, the tendency is to err in the direction of blithely ignoring context or mitigating circumstance or social graces ... or to err toward Intrinsicism (a world view) or Rationalism (a method).

"The important thing is that I am pure. Thank God! "

Brant, I am very happy for you...I was worried :-)

"a large part of benevolence is the tolerance of differences. "

Andy, I think that's an important application or sub-form of benevolence (always assuming normal circumstances, honest error as opposed to evil , etc.). And it's one I'm not sure I mentioned in my TOC Benevolence Lecture. I had to delete lots of concrete issues and "sub-virtues."

"At least now I know I won."

Jon, the check is in the mail :-)

Philip Coates

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 8/30, 8:49am)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 8/30, 9:10am)


Post 207

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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I approved Andy's advocacy of "tolerance of differences" in my last post and then immediately felt uncomfortable.

I think the problem is the word "tolerance" is a fuzzy word with many senses, and I don't want to approve of -every- sense.

The same with the idea of an "open" system. Open in what sense? Tolerant intellectually or tolerant in saying you don't care? Or tolerant meaning you won't physically suppress? Or tolerant meaning you will not assume the person is evil or tolerant meaning you will make common cause with outright opponents of reason?

A lot of the bitterest disputes between Kelleyites and Peikoffites (God, I hate that terminology!) ... and TOC'ers and SOLO-ians and ARI-ists and Brandonians and Reismanites and hip-shooters ... comes from using fuzzy words with multiple definitions.

And then getting into a lengthy argument when your use of the word is different from your opponents and non-benevolently failing to allow for the possibility that your vicious, vile, anti-Objectivist scum-of-the-earth kantian-religio-subjectivoid opponent might actually intend something different by the term.

I would have to reread "Fact and Value" and "Truth and Toleration" to see if either P. or K. was guilty of imprecison in regard to these two words himself, or if it was just less intelligent or less precise followers.

Philip Coates

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Post 208

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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I was reflecting upon one of the primary topics of this thread (go figure), which was the subject of the hero, and heroism.

My original line of thought was that of defining a hero from heroic actions in general. That took me to considering hero in myth, legend, and stories vs. real-world heroes. The discussion went for some time as to narrowing what constitutes a real-world hero from everyday people and heroic acts.

But, my interest was more in the what ,why, and "where from" of the fictional hero, as they appear in countless myths, legends, and stories, including stories written by Ayn Rand. As to the prior, I would say that it is good to consider that the mythical hero is there to be studied by all people. Hero stories are for people, by people, and often evolve through people.

In terms of talking about origin, I am convinced that Joseph Campbell has the deepest and most thorough work, although of course there are many others. One thing he talks about is that man has shifted his focus on who his main heroes were over time. At first, these heroes were predominantely animals.  Later, heroes became based on the seven traditional celestial bodies. In the end, the focus became on the "I": on man himself as hero. Accordingly, the metaphors shifted along with that change. After that, the predominant story of the hero became strikingly uniform in its elements. The hero leaves his home, and goes on a long journey. Somewhere along the line they encounter a profound transformation- it might be told such as they "die" to themselves, and are "reborn" or transformed in some other way. This is usually at the point where the journey has become incredibly long, and where the hero sees no end in sight. All appears to be lost, all is about to be lost. Then, the hero returns home, but changed. I think that's a fair summary, on the whole, although Campbell documents all this much more concisely. In any event, the possible methaphoric interpretations should appear obvious to most people. If not, do a quick uptake on it, it's easy to find.

So, I'm running all this back to myself, and it as always makes sense to me. I also find that it makes more obvious sense in terms of the Rand novels, and the shift of hero-focus to the "I". It appears obvious that what she did was literally re-engineer the "I" part of the very strong heroes she created in her stories. So far, so good.

Then, the whole Talmud quote thing came back to me, as you can imagine it was now laying around my front line like a troll turd on my treelawn. What Branden said about it (and it matters not at this point whether it was translated correctly or not, it was what he was working with) is interesting from this re-engineered "I" standpoint.  

I'm not saying Branden was thinking this, only that he happened to lead me to it by his statement:

It is reasonable to say that often, the hero's enemy is portrayed metaphorically (and quite frighteningly at times) as a part of himself. Think along the lines of the unconcsious, and its contents; maybe use a simple Jungian archetype like the Dark Man. It doesn't matter.

All that in place, talking about the true hero being he who makes a friend of his enemy takes on an entirely different significance, and it is a psychological one. At that point you could be talking about befriending your unconscious. I do know that one thing that I am not interested in is doing battle with it.

rde

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 9:21am)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 9:28am)


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Post 209

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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Rich -

About "treating political activists who might be opposed to Objectivist principles, and that it wouldn't surprise you if Nathaniel Branden had taken them as clients." You ask, "Why did you say it? I understand the what, not the why."

Because this context illustrates a radical difference between objective Randian ethics and the conventional (and false) "ethics" of the psychotherapeutic profession.

The conventional "professional ethic" of psychotherapists derives from churchly "ethics of the Confessional." It presumes that the Soul exists on a higher and separate plane from physical existence. To the conventional psychotherapist or priest, existential consequences don't matter. The secrecy and availability of the confessional apply equally to murderers, child molesters, and socialist politicians. The priest or psychotherapist is charged with healing all souls equally, and the welfare of the client's soul comes first, regardless of worldly consequences.

In contrast, objective ethics requires every man, even a psychotherapist, to be responsible for all the consequences of his actions. If the psychotherapist can get the murderer to stop killing and make just amends, if he can get the child molester to stop molesting, and the politician to stop "redistributing" his victims' wealth and limiting their freedom, then the psychotherapist is acting ethically. If the psychotherapist helps the criminal continue his crimes as before, only with less anxiety and less guilt, and therefore with greater effectiveness (which is what a psychotherapist is supposed to do under conventional "professional ethics") then the psychotherapist is in fact acting un-ethically.

The case of the politician is particularly relevant, because the fact that political power grows out of the barrel of the gun is generally ignored in conventional culture, and therefore redistributing the wealth of others, and limiting their freedoms by political means, are done in the open. So one might be able to judge NB's ethics by how he approaches and what he achieves in therapy on politicians.

Did I answer your question?

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/30, 9:44am)


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Post 210

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Adam:

Did I answer your question?
 
Indeed you answered. But, you say:

So one might be able to judge NB's ethics by how he approaches and what he achieves in therapy on politicians.
 
According to that line of thought, yes. I do not wish to debate that line of thought. The problem is, as possible as that might be, it was not what you did, because there was no evidence, and I cannot think this simply escaped your attention. So, knowing that you had nothing concrete to work with, why did you go ahead and say it?

If it was a general theory, as you state it here, why did you link it to Nathaniel Branden? What was the purpose of doing that? Simply because it came up in conversation and you thought you'd give it a try on him?

You have a long background on SOLO, and in the Objectivist community. Newcomers have to make up their own minds about things like everybody else, but it is not unreasonable that they will put some weight on your statements. Isn't that a credibility issue? What you are implying cannot be proven. That has to be good for a bit of confusion.





 


(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 9:56am)


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Post 211

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Philip,

I am going to give you a personal statement on what makes me go hot and cold. (I do hope you have noticed other aspects of my demeanor in addition to the invective, like the many warm welcomes I make to newcomers on Solo and my repeated efforts to calm down the excitement when people I care about become mad at each other, just to name two.)

I normally do not like to quote myself from an article, but at the end of Like a Lamb to the Slaughter I stated my position perfectly:
But I also find that I am becoming increasingly out of patience with other issues that I used to not mind so much. I have become very sensitive to comparing what people say against what they do. I have learned to use an iron hand to protect my space from encroachment, including emotional and spiritual space, and even the parts that I do not use very often. I place an extremely high value on friendships that have been tested by events. I will cut my friends a lot of slack when they are wrong and I have little patience with a new arrival in my life wanting the same privilege.
Where this attitude came from was when I made the conscious choice to live again after some very serious problems. I decided that I would set a line of cordial behavior that I observe with others and require that they do with me in order for me to interact with them. When that line is crossed I give fair warning. If the error is insisted on, after a time I go hostile and cut off all contact. That is with anybody. I do not mind if someone comes down hard on me behind my back. I can do very little about that. (I hear bits of gossip at times and, frankly, they make me laugh. You know the routine, talk bad, but talk... LOLOL...)

However, I did not make a choice to come back to the land of the living in order to listen to a spoiled brat mouth off in my face calling me names when I am trying to discuss something important. Scratch that. When I am trying to do anything at all. I have other things to do. People will do only what you let them get away with. I am speaking specifically about how they treat you.

A person who is a friend, especially one who has a great deal of accumulated achievement, will have a great deal more slack with me on this than a newcomer who has done nothing of any importance that I can see. (Do you remember a little piece of work who tried to call attention to himself about the Valliant book, then went after Chris Sciabarra? How could I ever continue interacting seriously with that kind of horseshit? It seems that it was made for trouncing. But if Linz or Adam or Roger or any number of others I respect, hell, even you, go off on me, I will stop first and find out what the dickens is going on.

This position is a personal one of mine, consciously chosen. I also demand of myself what I demand of others. Any perusal of my posts will evidence this time and time again. This has nothing to do with the traditional Objectivist predisposition toward excommunication and bickering because one person cannot stand to be wrong or disagreed with about an idea he/she stated.

You also might have noticed that I do state loudly when I have erred without any compunction against doing so or embarrassment (well, maybe a little embarrassment, depending on how bad the error is - sometimes I can get out there just like everybody does at one time or another).

I do not expect others to hold this position of insisting on cordiality in the manner I do. It is not anything Objectivist per se. It is my own chosen way of getting horseshit out of my way so that I can concentrate on my own achievements.

In general, I would state my overall approach as being very benevolent. (Look a the way I am conducting a conversation at this very moment on another thread with Brendan, with whom I have severe disagreements. That is because both he and I are keeping the focus on the ideas, not on trying to show everybody how we are kicking each others ass, playing the Randroid shuffle or other mind games. I sense sincerity of exchanging ideas, so I keep it cordial as best I can with him, despite a certain incredulity that hits me at times.)

I have written reams of cordial posts to those who disagree with me - even heated ones on both sides where, despite the disagreement, both sides come off as benevolent. (Thomas Knapp comes to mind.) For a brilliantly insightful article about this, please see Luke Setzer's Benefactors versus Malefactors. Hell, see Ed Thompsen's inspiring recent article on newcomers and Atlas icons.

My dander gets up, though, with loud-mouthed showoffs. I tend to respond in kind, then move on. Those who have no basic sense of cordiality to someone they do not know are a complete waste of my time, which can be used much more profitably elsewhere. Let them rant and rave about their bellyaches to their own family members and others who tolerate their horseshit.

Not me.

Michael
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/30, 10:12am)


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Post 212

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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Michael:

My dander gets up, though, with loud-mouthed showoffs. I tend to respond in kind, then move on. Those who have no basic sense of cordiality to someone they do not know are a complete waste of my time, which can be used much more profitably elsewhere. Let them rant and rave about their bellyaches to their own family members and others who tolerate their horseshit.
 
I think your personal policy is reasonable. In fact, it is a good deal more reasonable than others. For one thing, if you get, er, behavior right off the jump, there is nothing, including giving benefit of doubt like you do, to lead you into thinking you can look forward to anything other than that. First impressions and how we all recognize their importance yet often violate our own directives.

It is basic Branden 101 as well, in that you are saying that you can control only your own behavior, not that of others. And, that the biggest judgment you ever make in your life is the one you make on yourself. No voodoo in any of that, either.

I think that sometimes people coming out of the gates scorched-earth style is a self-esteem issue. And, I do believe there is a certain inherent narcissistic element around working on forums in the first place. Again, we can only observe and manage our own behavior. The real challenge is that of acting by example, and it ain't always easy, brother. I have an itchy trigger finger, even after the giant tone-down job I did on myself a few years ago.








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Post 213

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Rich,

In post 6, I was responding to Jordan's question. "When is it "*entirely* appropriate to condemn and repudiate behavior that is wrong, even in therapy?"

In post 18, I was responding to Roger's claim that "Adam's examples are from Fantasyland." I was arguing against Roger's apparent belief that a socialist politician would never seek psychotherapy in order to relieve the anxiety and guilt that he must suffer in his line of "work," and in order to make himself more efficatious at achieving his (objectively criminal) goals.

Context matters, etc.

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Post 214

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Yes, I understand where it laid in the time line. But why did you use unverifiable third-party reports, link them to Branden, and then say that it wouldn't suprise you? If you think the man is unethical (or at least taking significant actions counter to Objectivism)  wouldn't the things to do be either keep it to yourself,  state it as a gut opinion, or give proof?

Eliminating that it is not a statement of fact, doesn't your choice of action come off as rumour and innuendo generating? Look like you wanted to stick one in Branden, but didn't really have anything solid to so stick with?

That is what Objectivist ethics dictate, in terms of speaking about others, do they not?

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 10:56am)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 10:57am)


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Post 215

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Rich,

I was just making the point that my examples - which in post 6 were clearly hypothetical - were not "from Fantasyland." Why are you persisting in ripping my post 18, which was only intended, in context, as a counterexample to Roger's "Fantasyland" comment, from that context - and inflating it, from a hypothetical non-"Fantasyland" example of a situation in which NB the psychotherapist might have had to make an ethical decision, into an (imagined) smear?

The question above is just for you to think on. I am not asking you to answer it on this thread, which has gone too far off-topic already.

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Post 216

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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"this thread, which has gone too far off-topic already."

Adam, I was thinking about whether the general discussion about ad hominems and civility and respect on a thread dealing with "Branden vs. AR on morality" was off-topic, and whether I should just drop it myself. And my conclusion is that it is on the application of the topic.

The original article was about and engendered a debate on Branden's position on contempt and moral condemnation, his view on when one is judging too harshly or condemning inappropriately, and on converting opponents into allies as opposed to bitter, alienated enemies.

And that is -exactly- what we are seeing here. The issue of applying those principles to how one discusses and posts on that very topic on this very thread is thus quite appropriate and ties the abstractions to concretes as immediate and current as the last few days ... and involving each of us.

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Post 217

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Adam:

But isn't "Fantasyland" exactly the back of what drove your comment about Nathaniel? It isn't referenced in reality, this is clear.  It is along the lines of conjecture, and supposition- I see no difference. If anything else,  it appears to be more along the lines of random sniping.  I won't say you are acting like the embodiment of Objectivism, because, for one thing, that wouldn't be nice. Secondly,  I don't believe in a single source. But, you certainly hold people to simple standards such as the one I am holding you to. That standard is a very old one, no? Don't say funny shit about your neighbor?  I just think you don't like that you got called on it. We all get called on things. Summon up some heroic strength and admit that you were being snippy (snipey?), if that was the case.  

 Why not put the cards on the table, if there are any?  If you have a beef with Branden, and are writing in the area (as in on a thread specifically devoted to his idea of morality), maybe you should just say what you want to say and be done with it. Given that you are from the NBI days, it might be more useful to talk about where you are, how you got there, and how you feel about things now, specifically with NB. After all, he was your teacher. He was the man that rolled out Objectivism.  

I came to the conclusion long ago that there are standards that even the most strident Objectivist cannot adhere to. Well, in any event, not do so and flourish.
I think that that, my friend, is actually part of what this thread is about.

The other thing that got me to thinking was (was it Linz?) that mentioned the Nietzsche quote about the first generation of a philosopher. I want to work on that with Objectivism. I can tell you that, for what it's worth, I was very close to turning my back on it again, but I found myself thinking in the other direction again. Oddly, the first time (maybe 18 years in), it was running into Nathaniel's stuff that allowed me to come back to it, and appreciate it almost as much as I did in those amazing first days after contact with Atlas Shrugged. Anyway, you get my drift...

Best Regards,
rde

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 2:43pm)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/30, 2:57pm)


Post 218

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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Rich Engle ---

HUH?????!!!!
 
 - Jason


Post 219

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

No, I don't "get your drift." I just don't "get drifts." Over and out.

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