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Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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I've had some "successes" and some "failures" (on whether the person actually read a book), but pretty much all of my discussions on objectivism end in a mutually beneficial manner. What usually happens is both I and the person I'm talking with learn the philosophy more. I'm always improving in my own understanding and discovering ways to improve my life (oh yea, and other's lives too).

Sometimes I meet a person who is gung-ho on the idea that every "human's" needs should be provided for, no matter the means to this end. Instead of looking at the long term effects, they look at the single guy the moment we take from the producer and give to the needer. This person thinks every human is intrinsically valuable, and that every human should be provided the basic living necessities to be able to live "in dignity", and for the producers to live "dignified", like "humans" instead of "animals".

My counter argument is bringing up the looters and slave drivers. I argue they enable them, and then the looters and slave drivers destroy society. Of course taxes themselves are a form of looting and slave driving.

Then, from the OSS (Open Source Software) community, people claim "money corrupts" etc. Well, basically money translates to ability. Some will use the money in the end to purchase tools to commit initiations of force, its inescapable. Indeed, some will combine production and destruction of others. In the end, the producers will always be the most successful. Hopefully there are enough John Galts, Ragnar Danneskjölds, Francisco d'Anconias, George Washingtons, John Lockes, and Ayn Rands around to save the day for those who are less able to produce.

Forcing (those who produce yet do not live at the expense of others) to give up their control over the use of their own property will not solve the problem. That is the long term and most crippling problem to men who do not live at the forced expense of others.

Post 1

Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
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I gave my father, a farmer, a large print edition of The Fountainhead as a holiday gift some years ago.  He read it and enjoyed it but said that Ayn Rand could have still told the story in only a third of the pages!  I think his exact words were, "You need a big steel plow shear to get through that book!"  When I told him Atlas Shrugged was even longer, he declined my offer to give him a copy.  He is definitely more of a Louis L'Amour man.

Post 2

Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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I bought the Donahue-Rand videos. I'm starting to watch them with others (and discussing them afterwards). The first time went moderately "unsuccessfully" (it didn't instantly convert my church-going, altruistic friend). I have another friend lined up now. As he's both conservative AND anti-religious -- his reaction will probably be more interesting than the fence-sitting, wishy-washy reaction of my first friend ...

Ed


Post 3

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

Her 1959 interview with Mike Wallace was better in my opinion, thatn the Donahue pieces, at least on some points. Have you seen it?

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 1/27, 1:01pm)


Post 4

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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No Ethan, but I'm going to buy it now (thanks for the suggestion!).

In my opinion, the videos will be the way that we get the most converts. Not just because folks are technocrats now, either. Seeing the originator of the philosophy AS A REAL PERSON responding to REAL CRITICISMS OF OTHERS has value that can't be captured in a written essay or volume.

Actually, I have always found Q & A sections to be more valuable than the straight explication of an idea. It's a dialectical thing, you know what I mean?

I think that Objectivists should stock up on the Mike Wallace-Rand vids, give them for gifts, or -- like me -- take them over to friends' houses; to watch together and discuss. Instead of a book club, there could be a video club. Not that book clubs are bad -- I just think video has more total conversion-potential, as folks are less likely to take the extra time to read books.

Ed


Post 5

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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I agree about the accessability of video. See Rand tackle Wallaces questions was amazing to me. To hear her in her own words deal with many of the typical arguments that an Objectivist would hear. The university interview was also a good one. I think it was U of Minnesota.

Let us know how it goes!

Ethan


Post 6

Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

=================
The university interview was also a good one. I think it was U of Minnesota.
=================

No way! Is this true? Can someone corroborate this? The U of MN is MY very own school!

Ed
[I'd love to see if I recognize any of my professors there!]




Post 7

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Actually it was the University of Michigan in 1961. My error.

Ethan


Post 8

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
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This is weird.  I thought I was really lagging behind in missionary work before I read this poll.  I just kind of wish it hadn't cost me a copy of anthem (since been replaced) and my copies of "Capitalism the Unknown Ideal" and "For the New Intelectual"... (my own fault for loaning books out with terrible timing and getting behind in asking for them back)

---Landon


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Post 9

Sunday, February 5, 2006 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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I got a philosophy of education professor interested enough for him to acquire Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. What happened was, some student brought up a question in class that indicated a totally screwed up view of reason. (I wish I could remember the details.) My hand shot up, I was called on, and I gave a small, forceful speech about the nature of reason, and what the process of reasoning really entailed.

Soon after that, class was over, and I noticed the professor making his way to me. He said, "That was the clearest explanation of reasoning I ever heard" etc. I told him about Ayn Rand's work and thought.

In the next class, he held up and recommended AR's The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution to the class. And later on, he got a copy of Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology to study.

He was an admirer of Teilhard de Chardin, as I recall.


Post 10

Sunday, February 5, 2006 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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I may have a future Objectivist on my hands as of today, in fact.  This afternoon, I had a date with woman of Ukrainian descent who has lived in America for the past seven years.  She grew up under communism and despised it.  She is now building a career for herself as a real estate broker, and enjoys being self sufficient.  I asked her if she was familiar with Ayn Rand - she wasn't - and I then began to tell her about We the Living, as I thought it might be interesting to her given her background.  She told me that she thought that the storyline sounded 'depressing', so I then steared her toward The Fountainhead.  That seemed to pique her interest more.

I then warned her that Rand's ideas are very controversial, and that she could expect to have many of her deeply held assumptions challenged.  She asked for an example of why this is the case, and I told her about the 'altruism is evil' concept, and how the welfare state is immoral because money is forcibly taken from some and given to others.  Instead of vehement disagreement (which is what I thought might happen), she merely said, "But I think I already agree with that!"


Post 11

Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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I've converted (finger counting...Aaron, Jeremy, Laura, Maryam) four individuals to Objectivism; all of them are very promising emissaries of goodness.  I am currently working with (counting...) 2 other young minds with promise, and there are (...Colin, Anna, Jessie, Ronald, Sean...oh) many more who I know are Fierce Reasoners deep down, but I just haven't really talked to them. 

It's a great feeling, this missionary work.  My good friend was once talking about potential girlfriends he sought at his high school before he met his present one.  He said that there were a few young ladies there who he admired, but that none were perfect because he "would've had to do some work on them."  What sort of work?  That's right: bringing them to the fine state that is Objectivism, making them more conscious of all the happiness their lives held, shaping them into creatures of capitalism and glory, the modern-day female counterparts to the modern Tom Sawyer, etc, etc--all so he could enjoy them more.  Anyways, I laughed because his actual 'work' was probably the furthest thing from the conventional definition that I'd ever heard.

Michael Yarbrough


Post 12

Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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Where can I find this Rand/Wallace interview?

Post 13

Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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TOC sells it.

So does Laissez-Faire Books.....

(Edited by robert malcom on 2/16, 10:36am)


Post 14

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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I said no to this poll because at the time of the poll, I had not tried since I was still learning. Since then, I've persuaded someone who hates Atlas Shrugged (he's a rampant literature geek) to focus on the philosophy rather than linguistics, semantics, and tone. I told him he would more enjoy her non-fiction instead, and he has developed more of an interest. And of course, I am free to talk about Rand with him *honestly*-- my experience, my thoughts, how we see the ways people put this into action, etc. I let him come to his own conclusion, because he's super smart and can do all the thinking on his own.

My roommate is currently reading AS; he's into it because he's interested in the philosophy behind "utopian societies" and how happiness and life can be made better. He's pursuing a Master's in a field that involves designing ways to help the handicapped be more self-mobile (at least this is what I gathered from my 2-3 conversations with him).

I really don't make it a habit of persuading everyone in my vicinity to read Rand.

I would choke on myself if I did that. Once upon a time, I made it a habit to persuade everyone in my vicinity to read the Bible. If they didn't like it, I'd try to argue them into guilt-ridden submission or condemn them to hell behind their backs. Yeah, how cool was I?

This approach is way too analogous for me. Now, I make it a habit to refer to differing books to back up my reasoning; I don't quote Rand more than others; I name writers/thinkers as relevant guidelines and why; I explain reasons why I like a lot of thoughts from someone yet not agree on others (Einstein, Gould, Russell). I wouldn't condemn my friends for their thoughts (while disagreements with progress are fine) because I find myself in that position again where I can understand (intellectually) where they're coming from... however, my friends all possess a high degree of grounded intelligence, so it's not that hard.

As for my parents, first I have to explain to them what atheism is --even though they're atheists already. I'm still at the point where every year I have to tell them to do an anti-virus check on their computer; this will be the 10th year. I'm a long ways away from getting my mother to read an English-language book more than 200 pages, more than once a year. My father reads newspapers, pharmacist magazines, and anything about golf; I know him well enough to know that those are his limits. My sister is Boss Woman-- she likes to run things-- micro and macro-managing. Her major was communications/advertising; and immediately after college she got herself hired at her first choice job. She's working her way up the corporate ladder by dint of ambition, determination, grittiness, hard work, intelligence; she doesn't take *any* crap, she's all things practical, grounded, and mature, she'll straight up tell reality like it is-- even in the dressing room, at full volume ("YOU CAN'T MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING! TRUST ME!")

My sister, mom, and I are on similar paths now; actually, I sent them a Cap Mag. article on reality, responsibility, rationality-- my mom's response was "I'VE BEEN TELLING YOU THAT FOR YEARS" while my sister's was "DUH..." I think on the whole, my family's doing well.



Post 15

Thursday, March 9, 2006 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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I was introduced to Rand in 1960 when I was in the Navy. One of the guys in my division recommended AS and The Fountainhead, but when I took a look at them, I said, "Nope, way to long." That's how intellectual I was! But then I spotted Anthem, the Dick and Jane of Objectivism, and the rest is history. How pathetic is that?! Folks, you're dealing with a real lightweight here! ;-) If Intro. to Obj. Epist. were around then, I would have taken one look at it, and said, "Huh??"

- Bill

Post 16

Thursday, March 9, 2006 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Tend to agree with you, Bill - read the book The Fountainhead because had seen the movie - otherwise, well, maybe..... as to AS, since had read War and Peace, the size didnt deter me, but the idea of a better book then TF sure did [couldn't then accept the idea - took 6 months before going to it]....

Never knew of Anthem till years later.....

(Edited by robert malcom on 3/09, 7:32pm)


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Post 17

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Gentleman if I may,

Ayn’s labor in my opinion is not for the common mind, average fool or drifter of the plains. If not careful the individual offering of her gripping work could put one in position of a Holy Roller or Bible thumper passing around a collection plate. This may seem odd coming from a person in my field (radio) but there’s nothing more I enjoy than standing erect and foaming at the mouth while dishing out scrolls of rational venom.

During this process when dragging the mystified through folklore and OBJECTIVE HELL, I’m often approached for a cold glass of lucid water. Upon those request of enlightenment I am willing to be considered someone’s friend. I would feel guilty and somewhat cheap if I tried to persuade or gather sheep in the valley. We stand-alone for those to see!

I was once a Times Square screamer who offered salvation through the passive carpenter until I stumbled across the real boss (Rand). A book as a gift is one thing but to spoon-feed its pages means the mind is either underdeveloped or has passed the mark. Today’s Objectivist must risk everything for all or nothing, he or she is obligated to take on the mobs of insanity for the good of man.

S.




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Post 18

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:58pmSanction this postReply
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Well said, Star. Shine on.

Post 19

Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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I think people can live by it even if they don't understand everything. I've met plenty of people who are not very smart, yet still are able to identify that I'm a truth seeker and know a great deal of truth. They may take Ayn's writing, or Joseph Rowland's writing, etc. like they once took the bible, but what will make up their minds is the success that they see in us, and that our words are consistent with our actions. Its kind of like the taxi cab driver that doesn't know how his car works, but he still does an excellent job of taking you to where you want to go.

Even if you aren't the greatest philosopher, even if you can't explain how everything works, you can still do great things. If you do, then I thank you and hope you prosper. My intention is to make it so.

Please set a good example. : )

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