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Monday, August 1, 2005 - 6:27amSanction this postReply
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In our quest for minimizing government, trusting in the dynamics of a free market, wouldn't an increase in the organized crime syndicates we normally call labour-unions be one result. In a wish for greater influence, wouldn't we inevitably be organized in groups of ever larger scale, groups that ultimately would take over the role of government.

We have seen dairy cooperations grow to multinational conglomerates, where each individual owner - the farmers - have been ruled and regulated by the organization that should be their own. The organization developed to a beast serving its own purpose, a beast the owners couldn't cross if they would like to be able to sell their products.

Isn't government a result of laissez faire capitalism?

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Post 1

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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Why is this in the dissent forum?

It is a fact of reality that irrational people will behave irrationally. "Anarcho-capitalism" is an oxymoron, and not just because previously voluntary organizations, such as unions and cooperatives, tend to turn coercive if they can get away with coercion - and what is true of dairy cooperatives would be at least as true of "market-based defense agencies."

Does anyone think that people who believe in their "cause" enough to explode bombs in abortion clinics, or in crowded buses and trains, would not, in the absence of states, form their own "market-based defense agencies" and proceed to compromise the freedoms of the rest of us?

Does anyone seriously expect reality to conform to the rationalistic dreamworld of Rothbardian economics?

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/01, 7:42pm)


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Post 2

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Soren -- I think you have it about right, though you seem to misunderstand our position on this matter.  Interestingly enough capitalism and freedom (two concepts which are inseperable) cannot survive without a government .  If you think that most of us at this site are arguing against central government you are mistaken.  What we do advocate is a very strong central government that has constitutionally limited powers.  Those powers include only those actions which protect the rights and freedom of individuals.  The government responds to "initiations of force" upon its citizens.  This includes police actions when this occurs inside of the nation it is governing or military actions against outside powers who are guilty of initiations of force.  So, these internal groups you are discussing are to be kept in line and destroyed when necessary by the government when they begin violating the rights of citizens. The key difference between the governmental system that we advocate and every other government on the face of the earth is that under no circumstances do we desire that our government initiatiate force itself.  I would be glad to continue this conversation and expand upon this topic.  It is a very important one, and a topic that many who claim to be Objectivists or libertarians do not fully understand and thus cannot properly advocate.

 - Jason  


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Post 3

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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"Does anyone think that people who belive [sic] in their 'cause' enough to explode bombs in abortion clinics, or in crowded buses and trains, would not, in the absence of states, form their own 'market-based defense agencies' and proceed to compromise the freedoms of the rest of us?"

Does anyone think that people who believe in their "cause" enough to explode bombs in abortion clinics, or in crowded buses and trains are going to refrain from doing such things because there are States?

Oh, I forgot.  We are in the presence of States, and as a result no one ever explodes bombs in abortion clinics or in crowded buses and trains.  Now I see.

My mistake.

JR



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Post 4

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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"Does anyone think that people who believe in their "cause" enough to explode bombs in abortion clinics, or in crowded buses and trains are going to refrain from doing such things because there are States?"
 
No, but this is a very silly argument.  The state is in place to respond to such incidents and to destroy such orginizations and imprison those who carry out these actions.  The reasons are as follows.

1.  So that these types of criminals don't themselves become the government.
2.  So that anarchy and warlordism (or -- competing governments) are not allowed to overthrow a civilized society.

There is really no point in making crude little statements like this.  We're interested in hearing logical arguments.  If you have one for whatever point you were trying to make with this statement I am all ears.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/01, 4:38pm)


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Post 5

Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 7:08amSanction this postReply
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Jason Quintana wrote: "No, but this is a very silly argument.  The state is in place to respond to such incidents and to destroy such orginizations and imprison those who carry out these actions.  The reasons are as follows."

True, the government acts upon the past.  Business anticipates the future. 
Government attempts to "redress grievances" while businesses calculate compound interest.

The police try to catch the culprit -- and let's hope they get the right guy -- while a private defense agency prevents victimization. 

If a private protection agency failed to prevent crimes, it could not compete.  However, a public police department points to its failures as the reason why it needs more resources.  Socialism does not work, not for steel mills and not for police.

Adam Reed posted yet another example of an innocent man sent to prison.  Socialism does not work, not for farms and not for courts.

Soren Olin's original point was: "We have seen dairy cooperations grow to multinational conglomerates... Isn't government a result of laissez faire capitalism?"

In the sense that humans are social animals, yes. If we pushed a magic button and eliminated all governments -- and equalized all the "wealth" and educated everyone magically to the same level and so on -- how long would it take for everything to get back to being just like it is today?  A year? A generation? Three generations or a century? Probably one day.  That is why we have governments.  They were not imposed on us by outerspace aliens: we evolved them according to our perceived needs, just as we evolved speech, tools, and everything else.  I do believe that we are evolving.

In Thucydides is the story the island of Melos.  They revolted against the Athenian hegemony and Athens slaughted all the men and enslaved all the women and children.  In his History, Thucydides recounts the arguments.  The Melians say that for Athens to do this would be unjust.  The Athenians reply that natural law demands exactly this, that the strong rule the weak and the cries of Melians are only the cries of the rabbit in the claws of the eagle.  That argument would be rejected today -- by everyone, by even the Islamic suicide bombers.

Eventually, I believe, we will get beyond government.  American Constitutional government made a big difference in the history of political science.  Fail though they might, virtually every government today attempts to emulate the words if not the practice. They all have grand sounding constitutions with lists of rights (and obligations).  What matters most is the common culture of the people.  That culture is not limited to a geography.  Objectivism is not alone in being an international movement. 

 We live on a small planet.  When I worked at Kawasaki, one of the Japanese accountants said one lunchtime that he thought that there is a new "nationality" of "international" people.  No matter where they come from or where they are now, expatriates tend to share a lot in common and to him, that commonality pointed to a new world society.

We all know Ayn Rand's famous challenge that if neighbors with competing defense agencies had a problem, each would call on their armies and, well, "you take it from there."  Linda and Morris Tannehill did just that in The Market for Liberty.  However, I would like to turn the problem around.  Considering the transnationalist culture of global merchants, how would you react to this challenge:
No one should be allowed to travel without severe restrictions.  Suppose that a German and an Australian were in Brazil on business and they had a disagreement.  Each would call his army.  The German army and the Australian army would meet in Brazil and there would be a three-way war.  The fallacies in that apply all the moreso when measured against a mercantile ethic, a bourgerois morality created and popularized by radicals for capitalism.


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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Adam: "Why is this in the dissent forum?"
From a mistaken view that it was in disagreement with the goals of Objectivism - i am still learning.

Jason: "I would be glad to continue this conversation and expand upon this topic.  It is a very important one, and a topic that many who claim to be Objectivists or libertarians do not fully understand and thus cannot properly advocate."
To the point! Thank you for sharing your insights, i appreciate your succinct style, anything you might choose to add would be read with great interest.

Michael: "...how would you react to this challenge: No one should be allowed to travel without severe restrictions.  Suppose that a German and an Australian were in Brazil on business and they had a disagreement.  Each would call his army.  The German army and the Australian army would meet in Brazil and there would be a three-way war"
Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail.
I too, have lived a handful of years abroad, and have felt the expatriate kinship, though i believe it to be transitional phase, a kinship based on the relative rarity of international living, the values i shared with ambassadors, housewifes, royalty and plumbers would evaporate when social barrier had grown back in a truly evolved world society.

In the Nordic Countries; Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland we do actually have an equivalent, we have arrangements making the Schengen treaty fade in comparison. We don't see ourselves as one people - far from - but we can freely move between-, work and live in -any of these countries, we can freely suck on the social security systems like leeches et al. moving from one nordic country to another is no different than moving to your neighboring city... but a prerequisite for this is a great deal of harmonization these governments between. This seedling of life transcending geographical borders, i don't see as a product of the existing governments gone to seed.

Maybe the strict government outlined by Jason, would be the harmonizing precondition for open borders. Common culture strikes me as a contradiction though, a global totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns may likely evolve, but judging from history it will be countered by china towns and little italys.

My further reading on this matter will be on the exact nature of that strong, central and constitutionally limited government, and how it will judge individual freedom in a battle between us or us.

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Post 7

Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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"Socialism does not work, not for steel mills and not for police. Socialism does not work, not for farms and not for courts."

Michael, you are applying a different definition to socialism then is commonly used -- and so I think you need to explain what it is specifically that you mean by this word.  You seem to be simply replacing the word "government" with "socialism".

"The police try to catch the culprit -- and let's hope they get the right guy -- while a private defense agency prevents victimization."
 
And how is this done exaclty?  How does "private defense force" prevent victimization?  I seem to be missing some important concept that you and Jeff Riggenbach seem to imply as if it were as clear as day.  We agree that the state's police force cannot prevent all victimization and that it is essentially a response force put in place to prevent further victimization.   What further advantage does this private orginization have that allows it to do better then this?

"We all know Ayn Rand's famous challenge that if neighbors with competing defense agencies had a problem, each would call on their armies and, well, "you take it from there."  Linda and Morris Tannehill did just that in The Market for Liberty. "
 
Can you lay out the basic points for us?  Some anarchists seem to be smart people but I have never once seen them argue this all the way through -- not enough to make me believe there is anything to their books.  So let me lay out the challenge.  Here is one of my basic critiques of "competing defense agencies" (and it is essentially the same question Soren raised above) and I would like to hear some anarchist responses. 

How is this type orginization (your private defense force) to be any different from how a modern mafia crime family operates?   At the heads of  orginized crime families are those who control the "protection" of orginized crime businesses.  They don't operate the businesses themselves, they provide protection to illegal business owners against other orginized crime bosses.  Since these illegal businesses do not have protection from the central government they must turn to one of the crime bosses for protection and in return they must pay them a tax from the money their businesses earn.  Since the mob boss controls all of the muscle, he also has the power to directly control all of the businesses under his protection even though he has no direct connection with their operations or any legitimate claim on the products or services they produce.  Now lets consider what would happen if government protection disolved into anarchy.  Wouldn't this same process take place with respect to all currently legal businesses?  Wouldn't every person, business and piece of property need to seek out the most powerful gang for protection and wouldn't those gangs now have full power to dictate the actions of the people, businesses and the use of property under their "protection" essentially eliminating the freedom of their "customers"?   Even those who decide to go it alone without protection would be eventually forced into paying "taxes" by groups of thugs looking to "shake them down".   So in effect you would have several (likely totalitarian) mini governments fighting and looting until the craftyest and most powerful thug gains complete power.  Isn't that how almost every totalitarian government in history developed and how does "anarcho-capitalism" magically prevent all of this? 

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/02, 3:25pm)


Post 8

Tuesday, August 2, 2005 - 11:43pmSanction this postReply
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To second Jason's notion here, how would a rights-recognizing institution (ie. a constitutional republic) work -- in relation to competitive gang warfare?

Jason makes a great point -- unanswered by anarchists.

Ed

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 4:40amSanction this postReply
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Ed, first, are you really saying that only constitutional republics are rights-recognizing institutions? That's what I infer from the 'ie.'.

Second, since a constitutional republic is supposedly what we have now, what is the purpose of your question?

Third, Jason merely demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the literature.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Everything in that literature - the Tannehills, David Friedman etc. - is based on the assumption that all "defense agencies" will behave rationally. But if everyone behaved rationally, there would be no need for "defense agencies" anyway. Soren brought up an important fact: all collective institutions, whether market institutions or governments, will attract power freaks who will compromise one's rights if they can. At least with governments there is only one of the damned thing to be overthrown if it gets out of hand. With "market defense agencies," if the "fetus rights defense agency" wishes to prohibit abortion, my "market defense agency" will find it cheaper to compromise with them than to defend my rights against them. Same thing with "Shariah defense agency," "Sopranos Protection Corporation" etc. I wind up with much less freedom than I have now. That is the system now in operation in Somalia, or in Afghanistan outside Kabul, and it sucks.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

--------------
Ed, first, are you really saying that only constitutional republics are rights-recognizing institutions?
--------------

Constitutional republics are the only INHERENTLY rights respecting institutions available to man. This has to do with their genesis and maintenance. Deriving its root characteristics from the people, and its powers from the people, and its scope (in service of the people) -- a rights-DISrespecting constitutional republic would be a contradiction in terms (a logical contradiction).

Even though corporations often recognize/respect individual rights (because it is a good business practice to do so), their genesis and maintenance does not entirely prescribe rights-respecting behavior.

A corporation could (to its own detriment) disrespect rights. However, a constitutional republic could not. Rights-respecting is entirely prescribed (and rights-DISrespecting entirely proscribed) with a constitutional republic.


--------------
Second, since a constitutional republic is supposedly what we have now, what is the purpose of your question?
--------------

Rick, the recent Kelo verdict is conclusive proof that we don't have this ideal now. A rights-disrespecting verdict is not even possible under a republic that is entirely bound by its constitution. Judges "convicted" of coming to a rights-disrespecting verdict would at the least lose their positions, possibly be forced into therapeutic counseling, and -- in very special cases -- be publically flogged, mocked, and spit at.

;-)

Ed


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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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"Third, Jason merely demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the literature."

Rick, I admitted my ignorance of the anarchist literature IN THE POST.  Please respond (one of you) and explain what specifically is wrong with my post.  I posted my message looking for responses from anarchists.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/03, 9:54am)


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Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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Tell me, Jason: Before you read Ayn Rand, did you pester people on a public forum to persuade you that you should read her?

JR


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Post 14

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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I think some people wondering about what would happen under anarchy, assuming the worst, might want to check out my article "The Worst Case Scenario Under Anarchy."

Post 15

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Riggenbach --

"Tell me, Jason: Before you read Ayn Rand, did you pester people on a public forum to persuade you that you should read her?"

I am making a simple argument and I am asking for a reply to it.  Surely you are capable of that Mr. Riggenbach.  On this message board we answer questions raised by non Objectivists all the time.  I am not asking to you explain your entire ideology I am asking you to rebut my post which something NONE of you have attempted yet.  Please respond to my post.

 - Jason 


Post 16

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony,

In reality, your "worst case scenario" is the only possible scenario. Without government, governments would evolve - because existence where one's liberty is constrained by many gangs is much less desirable than existence under one gang, and existence with a limited, constitutional government is better than under a regime - or many regimes - founded on arbitrary enforcement of multiple subjective "laws," on primacy of force, and on least-cost compromise with criminal or religious "defense agencies."

I would like to see in the world some reserved enclaves - Somalia, soon-to-be Gaza etc - where gangs ("defense agencies") can compete for business. We shall see how many people move in or move out.

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/03, 1:44pm)


Post 17

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

"Without government, governments would evolve - because existence where one's liberty is constrained by many gangs is much less desirable than existence under one gang, and existence with a limited, constitutional government is better than under a regime - or many regimes - founded on arbitrary enforcement of multiple subjective 'laws,' on primacy of force, and on least-cost compromise with criminal or religious 'defense agencies.'"

If "existence where one's liberty is constrained by many gangs is much less desirable than existence under one gang," how can you advocate "constitutional government," which is based on the notion of many gangs competing with each other in a system of "checks and balances"? How often has America's Constitution effectively limited the government?

I suggest Roderick Long's "Libertarian Anarchism: Responses to Ten Objections."

Post 18

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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In response to Anthony Gregory's article (which he posts a link to above) --

"Maybe the warlord criminal gangs would begin claiming ownership over everyone’s lives, telling inhabitants of the geographic regions that they dominate what those people could and could not do with their own bodies. The gangs would also try to take away everyone’s guns, and make sure they monopolized the deadliest weapons.
 
Once in a while, the criminal gangs would have serious conflicts with each other, either over territorial disputes or simply for the purpose of showing off, and they would engage in terrible shoot-outs with each other, killing innocent bystanders and even forcing innocent people to fund and fight in those battles.
 
So, if people cling on to and accept the institutionalization of violence in their lives, then under anarchy there might emerge – in the very worst-case scenario – governments. This is basically how governments emerged in the first place.
 
Of course, if governments come to be, it would cease to be anarchy, and we would be back to square one."

First of all, I don't think there is any question that this would be the result of anarchy (and I am still waiting for a good explanation as to why you think there is a chance it won't) but this isn't the major error in your arguement.   The key error in most of the posts I see written by anarchists is that they act as if all governments are equally evil.  They fail to see any significant differences in the evil of say, the USA and The People's Republic of China (Michael Marotta tried to infer this argument recently on another thread).  The fact is we would not be back at square one.  We would have at best a totalitarian government controlled by some dictator or monarch.  It took thousands of years for the constitutional republic and semi free trade (and all of the benefits that go along with it) to develop in the West and under these circumstances it might well take thousands of years for them to redevelop.
 
 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/03, 2:17pm)


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Post 19

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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Jason writes: " The key error in most of the posts I see written by anarchists is that they act as if all governments are equally evil. They fail to see any significant differences in the evil of say, the USA and The People's Republic of China (Michael Marotta tried to make this argument recently on another thread). The fact is we would not be back at square one. We would have at best a totalitarian government controlled by some dictator or monarch. It took thousands of years for the constitutional republic and semi free trade (and all of the benefits that go along with it) to develop in the West and under these circumstances it might well take thousands of years for them to redevelop."

I do not believe that all governments are equally evil, any more than someone who believes in limited constitutional government believes that all governments not so limited are equally evil.

Furthermore, constitutional republicanism and semi-free trade took thousands of years to develop not because of institutional requirements, but because of changes in culture. It is culture, which exists largely outside the State, that either forces the State to retract or allows it to expand.

Western civilization has undergone dramatic changes in its cultural makeup, and so it would not take thousands of years to recreate the relative political freedom we enjoy.

It took humans thousands of years to realize that government was something that wasn't categorically righteous and godlike, to see that government existed outside of society to a degree and did not embody the best of humanity simply by its governmental nature. And, perhaps it will take that long for people to realize that States, by their very nature, are not only imperfect, but criminal. When this happens States will cease to be. I do not expect it any time soon, for I am not unrealistic. A thousands years ago, those who sought liberty and limited government would have similarly been unrealistic if they had expected something like the Bill of Rights to emerge overnight. Three hundred years ago, it was unrealistic to believe slavery could end overnight. However, those who believed in liberty were right, regardless of the culture around them. And those of us who today oppose all institutionalized coercive violence are right, regardless of what most people might think.

Moreover, one doesn't even have to believe anarchy is possible, except in the most theoretical sense, to be an anarchist. Most people would characterize themselves as anti-murder, even as they would concede that murder will likely be with us for all forseeable time to come. To be opposed to States, all States, is not to have one's head in the clouds, but simply to have a strong ethical principle by which to measure the ethical qualities of the States that do exist, and to analyze political questions. Limited government, too, is somewhat a fantasy in today's world. But to believe strongly in it is not the same as thinking it will happen any time soon.



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