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Post 20

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
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Philip,

Here is an excerpt from a link I found on the internet, from Milosevic's trial at The Hague:

When it was Mr Milosevic's turn to speak, he continued the argument he's been making since he first stepped into court more than a year ago: that he was the peacemaker trying to save Yugoslavia from the imperialist Western powers who wanted to break it up. He said, of course, he helped the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia to survive, just like the Americans, Iranians and others supported the Muslims and Croats.
 Here is the prosecutor's statement:

"But we will submit to the conclusion of the evidence that the accused intended to destroy the Bosnian Muslim community in part in order to fulfil the aims of the objective of the criminal enterprise where persecutions would be insufficient to achieve the desired result or, alternatively, that genocide was the natural and foreseeable consequence of the joint criminal enterprise forcibly and permanently to remove non-Serbs from territory."
Now, while attacks on any and all non-Serbs, for whatever reason, is reprehensible, in light of September 11th and everything else we've all seen thus far, I now begin to more than wonder if the rest of the world really knew what perhaps necessitated such a paranoid view and splatter-shot attack on Muslim groups, and other peripheral groups.  After all, in our own nation now, we now know that we are under constant threat from not only Muslims, but that it is mind-frayingly hard to know who, beyond them, also supports these terrorists and perhaps wishes the demise of America.

All I'm saying is that it's been far too easy to point the finger at Milosevic before we found ourselves in his comparable position.  We are now finding ourselves approaching a disturbingly comparable dilemma to what may have been his.

And here is the link that I got these citations from:  http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/icty020927.html



Post 21

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
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Philip,

Here are some excerpts from a link on the net, covering Milosevic's trial at The Hague.  I think they reveal that he may have been dealing with a situation very similar to what is now ours:

When it was Mr Milosevic's turn to speak, he continued the argument he's been making since he first stepped into court more than a year ago: that he was the peacemaker trying to save Yugoslavia from the imperialist Western powers who wanted to break it up. He said, of course, he helped the Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia to survive, just like the Americans, Iranians and others supported the Muslims and Croats.
 Here is a statement during trial, from Milosevic's prosecutor:

"But we will submit to the conclusion of the evidence that the accused intended to destroy the Bosnian Muslim community in part in order to fulfil the aims of the objective of the criminal enterprise where persecutions would be insufficient to achieve the desired result or, alternatively, that genocide was the natural and foreseeable consequence of the joint criminal enterprise forcibly and permanently to remove non-Serbs from territory."
Do you notice any recurrences here?  Muslim threats?  Not knowing friends from foes?  How understandable are his anxieties now, in light of September 11th, and our own war on terror?

This may not change your mind, but at least I've posted it.  Here is the article link, so you can read it for yourself:  http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/icty020927.html


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Post 22

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Martin (if you're still following this thread),

I just have to note a contradiction in an earlier post of yours (Post 6), where you emphatically denounced Andre's emphatic denunciation of all faiths and true believers. Here are your words, Martin:

"Andre is not a man capable of very complex thought - as shown by his simplistic hatred and generalisations. Hence he is MOST LIKELY to follow Rand upon faith rather than reason. I do not know about other Rand followers...and I was not talking about them."

Martin, if Andre is wrong "to follow Rand upon faith rather than reason" - then Andre would be wrong because faith is wrong (which was Andre's point in the first place!).

Faith is - always and everywhere - wrong. Martin, that was Andre's point (and apparently, one of yours, as well).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 9/29, 10:14pm)


Post 23

Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Yes!

Exactly!

"if Andre is wrong "to follow Rand upon faith rather than reason" - then Andre would be wrong because faith is wrong (which was Andre's point in the first place!)"

A BIG contradiction...but not mine! This was what I was pointing out in the first place. Andre denounces all faiths...and yet to do so he relies on another faith.

Why you think this is my condradiction I'm not sure......

Post 24

Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Martin, please read Part 1 of the following essay on Rand/Religion and tell me what you think. There are 6 pages in total - but you only need read the first (your perspective on Part 1 should allow me to understand you):

http://www.dailyobjectivist.com/Spir/ObjectivismasaReligion.asp

Ed

Post 25

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 10:03pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Ed....

I read the whole article...was that cheating? Oooops.

Yeah - I agree with this article in most parts.

There are certainly people who are drawn to Objectivism via their emotions rather that through their reason....

There are certainly people who accept what Rand says upon faith.

It would be pretty amazing if EVERY person who liked Rand's ideas accepted them after their own analytical efforts....believing that would take a bit of faith!

I particularly like the section which talks about how to detect a fundamentalist objectivist... I have heard so many of these things on the Forum. Particularly the "scum"; "subhuman"; "slime" variety of "rebuttal"...

Thanks for that article... it has allowed me to articulate what it is that annoys me about people like Andre a lot better.

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