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Post 40

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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Chris,

"Then why didn't people prior to 1957 grasp it? In the wide scheme of human history, were human beings in the dark prior to 1957?"

The writings of Ayn Rand resonate VERY strongly with a percentage of people, numbering in the millions, on the first read. While not being able to explicitly state their philosophy before reading AR, these people are already objectivists, don't you think? How does one account for human progress up to the twentieth century without attributing it to an undercurrent of belief, in certain people, in the very principles explicated by Ayn Rand and objectivism?

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Post 41

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

LOLOLOL...
I've already asked you both, Jason and Michael, at separate times that you might consider the benifit of the doubt before giving me attitude.
I have to say this, Rick. (But not with hostility.) You might also "consider the benefit of the doubt before giving" the posters around here a lot of bad mouth.

Think about it. You wanna dish it out, learn to take it.

btw - There are lot's of smart people here. As you just found out, Chris, for instance, is a little bit more than marmalade. Appeal to their intelligence instead of slinging around blanket criticism and you might get pleasantly surprised. People might even share some "beauty" with you. (Not being sarcastic - there is actually plenty of that around here.)

Michael

Edit:

I will not have it said of me that by daring to consider the question I am disparaging Chris Sciabarra's achievements.
PLEASE do not fall into the Randroid trap of trying to be right all the time and rationalizing all over the place about something like that marmalade crack. In my opinion you are better than that. How about "I expressed myself lamely - sorry for the misunderstanding"? Not exactly accurate to me, but it works. My way (which I personally have done a few times) is, "I stepped on my dong and stand corrected. Sorry." That works the best for me. I can then forget about it and move on to the ideas themselves.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/01, 10:29am)


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Post 42

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 12:02pmSanction this postReply
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>Phil: Diligence, diligence, diligence every step of the way, Michael! Maybe you don't like the word? Sound too Catholic or Puritanical? Tough. Get over it.
>Michael Newberry: Huh?

Michael, I don't recall what you posted that set me off. Rereading my words above, they seem needlessly abrasive. Sorry about that. Heat and personal put-downs or disrespect can drown out light. It more often leads to escalating counter-rhetoric, flame wars which I detest, and it's not a style I prefer. And this is not just a note to you, but a reminder to myself to edit my posts and run them thru my pugilism filter. Lived in New Yaawk too long.

You talkin' to me?
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 6/01, 12:07pm)


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Post 43

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

> You talking to me.

My favorite DeNiro line!

Jim


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Post 44

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, you get two atlas statuettes for just saying the DeNiro quote was your favorite...and I get none for bringing in/using the quote.
Whassa principle here eggszactly?

Is it my breath? :-)

Post 45

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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You just got your sanction! If you don't ask... :-)

Jim


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Post 46

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Dayamm Phil!

I didn't know you were a sanction whore too! Ya have to draw me out, don't cha?

So, if you insist...

(bonk)

How's that?

Michael


(Edit - I was just passing by to reread Chris's posts and got feeling generous, so I got ya' on 42 too. There's only one DeNiro after all...)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/02, 1:17am)


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Post 47

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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In response to my question, Mike wrote: 

The writings of Ayn Rand resonate VERY strongly with a percentage of people, numbering in the millions, on the first read. While not being able to explicitly state their philosophy before reading AR, these people are already objectivists, don't you think? How does one account for human progress up to the twentieth century without attributing it to an undercurrent of belief, in certain people, in the very principles explicated by Ayn Rand and objectivism?

I think that one could make an argument, as Ayn Rand did, that there was an implicit Aristotelianism in that progress, and on this, I would agree wholeheartedly.  But it's quite a different proposition to claim that those who participated in human progress were Objectivists.  Objectivism, as such, didn't exist prior to Rand's explication of it, even if certain ideas connected to Objectivism (realism, egoism, individualism, capitalism) existed in some form as part of other systems of thought.  One can argue that many people, prior to Rand's explication of the philosophy, had a certain tacit adherence to some "Objectivist" principles.  And, in the 20th century, those who had that tacit adherence may have been predisposed toward her work. 

But all of this is fundamentally different from saying that people were "Objectivists" in the specific way that Rand meant it. If anything, I'd say most people---prior to 1957 and even today---are people of mixed premises.  The only difference is that now, we have the benefit of having in Rand a philosopher who checked those premises fundamentally and who pointed to a thoroughly integrated and radical alternative.


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Post 48

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
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Chris,

"But it's quite a different proposition to claim that those who participated in human progress were Objectivists. Objectivism, as such, didn't exist prior to Rand's explication of it, even if certain ideas connected to Objectivism (realism, egoism, individualism, capitalism) existed in some form as part of other systems of thought."

I didn't mean to claim people before Ayn Rand were Objectivists, i.e. followers of Ayn Rand, or able to express objectivist principles explicitly. But if Ayn Rands philosophy is consistent with "man qua man", that is, the basic nature of man, then the objectivist philosophy must have been expressed in the actions of many men since men evolved to be men. The genius of Ayn Rand was to make explicit what already existed but was not understood. Similar to a physicist making explicit a law of nature. That is what sends chills down the spines of those who read and understand Ayn Rand for the first time. Evidence for the fact that Ayn truly expressed man's nature is the attraction of Ayn Rand across the whole ethnic and cultural spectrum. People of intelligence are drawn to Ayn Rand's philosophy regardless of their background. The underlying nature of man, made explicit by Ayn Rand, has driven human progress from the very beginning.

Post 49

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 8:54pmSanction this postReply
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Buenos noches Kelly,-
trying to be right all the time and rationalizing all over the place about something like that marmalade crack.
Not rationalising. Polish your glasses, it was the same from the beginning.
I have to say this, Rick. (But not with hostility.) You might also "consider the benefit of the doubt before giving" the posters around here a lot of bad mouth.

Think about it. You wanna dish it out, learn to take it.
Take.....it? Were you paying me out? I didn't even notice, thought that was a butterfly disturbing the air not the mighty artillery of MSK wop-ass. Subtle differece hmm?

Who do you think I'm 'bad mouthing'? I have not yet begun, and have no plans to. But I can bring it senior, I can take the paint off the walls. In fact, if it wern't for my thoughtful consideration that my home is on the fault line between the Australian and Pacific plates then New Zealand would nolonger have any paint, or any walls.
"I stepped on my dong and stand corrected. Sorry." That works the best for me. I can then forget about it and move on to the ideas themselves.
Whatever you do with your dong, please do it now so I can forget about you and move on to the ideas themselves.



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Post 50

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Since you didn't understand, let me be clear. I suggest you stop posting like an asshole and get your nose out of the fucking plate.

Michael

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Post 51

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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Whoa! With words as puny as these you must live in an even more geologically inflammable zone than I.
I suggest you stop posting like an asshole and get your nose out of the fucking plate.
I suggest you stop picking postings out of your nose and serving us your asshole as a plate.


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Post 52

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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Rick, I am done with you. You have nothing of intellectual value for me.

Michael


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Post 53

Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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Rick - why do I have a sense of deja vu here?

You know the drill. Heated debate is fine, but your brand of gratuitous, smart-ass abusiveness is not fine. Keep it up & you'll go back under moderation. That's your first & only warning this time round.

Linz

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Post 54

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 1:41amSanction this postReply
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Brendan:
Enter Frank O’Connor. What do we know about this man? Handsome dude, somewhat androgynous, Hollywood actor, artist. That’s pretty sophisticated stuff, not Middlesville, USA. Is it possible that Frank, like many Hollywood actors, was bisexual?
Now that's a three dollar question if there ever was one.

I have read nothing, not even insinuations, ever to suggest Frank O’Connor was bisexual until now. Just as personal speculation, given Ayn Rand's own stated view of homosexuality (she said it was disgusting), I would imagine that she would not have stayed married to him if he were bisexual.

Also, she was a very convincing person who managed to get what she wanted merely using her own power of persuasion and tenacity - even from Hollywood producers. So I imagine that Frank went along because he knew it would be useless to resist after so many years of giving in to her wishes.

In Rand's fiction, it is always the one woman who had affairs with different heroes, not the contrary. My speculation is that this was her fantasy, but not one she would extend lightly to her husband, most especially with another man.

Michael


Post 55

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 2:42amSanction this postReply
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I've often wondered that about Frank, too. And Im not sure that Ayn *would* have left him had he been bisexual. In spite of her public comments about homosexuality being "disgusting," she was apparently quite relaxed about the homosexuality of Frank's brother, with whom she got on especially well, from all accounts. And can we realistically assume that Ayn herself was 100% at one exclusive end of the orientation spectrum? The "homosexuality-is-disgusting" Objectivists will no doubt consider such a question blasphemous, but I challenge them to say, hand-on-heart, they haven't wondered the same thing, sometimes, when seeing Ayn on TV.

I don't believe for a second that she would have *acknowledged* any lesbian impulses, let alone approved of them, but that's a different matter.

Linz

Post 56

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 3:40amSanction this postReply
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Before this veers off-topic in a consideration of Linz's blasphemy :) ... just a quick note.  Mike said:

Evidence for the fact that Ayn truly expressed man's nature is the attraction of Ayn Rand across the whole ethnic and cultural spectrum. People of intelligence are drawn to Ayn Rand's philosophy regardless of their background. The underlying nature of man, made explicit by Ayn Rand, has driven human progress from the very beginning.
There is evidence that Rand is gaining in popularity in the United States and maybe a few other countries (primarily in the West), but she is still primarily an American writer appealing to an American audience.  I don't see her as being especially known or popular in, say, the Middle East or Russia or Asia or Africa, where, Lord knows, her influence is sorely needed.

That said, I'm not entirely sure one can also make the claim that "[t]he underlying nature of man, made explicit by Ayn Rand, has driven human progress from the very beginning," except in the implicit Aristotelian sense that I've suggested.  And to a certain extent, that's pretty much what Rand herself claimed in For the New Intellectual:

If we consider the fact that to this day everything that makes us civilized beings, every rational value that we possess---including the birth of science, the industrial revolution, the creation of the United States, even the structure of our language---is the result of Aristotle's influence, of the degree to which, explicitly or implicitly, men accepted his epistemological principles, we would have to say: never have so many owed so much to one man.


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Post 57

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 4:29amSanction this postReply
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Dr. Diabolical said:

That said, I'm not entirely sure one can also make the claim that "[t]he underlying nature of man, made explicit by Ayn Rand, has driven human progress from the very beginning," except in the implicit Aristotelian sense that I've suggested.  And to a certain extent, that's pretty much what Rand herself claimed in For the New Intellectual: ...

This is my problem with academics. Is Diabolical "entirely sure" that he can't make such a claim? Is he entirely sure that that he can't be entirely sure of either? Without "entirely sure" how does he arrive at such derivative concepts as "to a certain extent" & "pretty much"? See, it all amounts to sweet bugger all when you express yourself that way. I think the claim, "The underlying nature of man, made explicit by Ayn Rand, has driven human progress from the very beginning" is incontrovertible. If it isn't, what the hell else aside from the underlying nature of man has driven human progress? A green spider on Mars?

I have an ongoing battle with DDD about academese. Just when I think I'm winning, the sweet, loveable, infuriating bitch posts something that makes me realise I have no chance—he's just a stubborn Brooklynite ... or not enough of one! He's a Brooklynite placing his stubbornness at the disposal of chronic, intractable ambiguity. He's a contradiction. Very dialectical ... except the point of contradictions is to resolve them!! :-)

What does all this have to do about how Ayn Rand became Ayn Rand? Well, she sure as hell didn't get there by means of "not entirely sure," "to a certain extent" & "pretty much."

Linz



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Post 58

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
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I love irritating you. :) 

I have to confess that I was going to simply state:  You're wrong, Mike.  But I figured there was another vantage point from which to view this.  He's wrong in one sense (the explicit Objectivist sense), but right in another sense (the implicit Aristotelian sense).  See, one can be wrong and right as long as one does not mean it at the same time, and in the same sense.  That would be a contradiction, and not even this dialectician believes in that!  Just trying to be a good Aristotelian.

LOL 


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Post 59

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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Guys, I really have problems with gossipy public speculation about the sexual preferences of prominent people -- particularly when such speculations are based on zero evidence.

There is nothing in the public record, absolutely nothing, that suggests that Ayn Rand and Frank O'Connor were anything but heterosexuals. You can privately "wonder" about them -- or about George Bush, about Captain Kangaroo or about me, for god's sake. But I think simple good taste (in the absence of a sense of basic dignity and responsibility) ought to discipline idle public speculations, and keep one from plastering them all over the Internet.

We all know how gossip acquires a life of its own, and soon becomes somebody's "fact."

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 6/02, 5:42am)


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