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Friday, June 3, 2005 - 12:46amSanction this postReply
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Good article Joe.

The example you gave was an emergency situation - but you really put your finger on the point you make here:
Your moral tools are contextual, and must be understood in relationship to your life.
Indeed they are, I agree. But does the loose acceptance of this idea ever lead someone down the slippery slope of "moral relativism"? Can "moral relativism" ever be a good thing ?


Post 1

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
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This is a gross distortion of Objectivism.  Objectivist morality is a tool for living, and you can't judge morality without reference to your life.  The virtues are tools to pursuing value, not rules to obey so you can call yourself moral.  Your moral tools are contextual, and must be understood in relationship to your life.  And most importantly, the focus is on living your life, not on avoiding immorality.
Well said.  I am looking forward to your answer to Marcus' question about the slippery slope that leads to moral relativism.


Post 2

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 5:42amSanction this postReply
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Nice article, and you did it without breaking out 'categorical' or 'hypothetical'. I agree that the real trick to contextualism is defining what principle (or would it have to be a rule?) limits it from becoming subjectivism, and I've never seen a viable answer to this.


Post 3

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 7:53amSanction this postReply
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Hi Joe

Another good example is this thread about Barabara and her dying mother:

http://solohq.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1112.shtml

It's this whole point that is often most confusing to non-objectivists and objectivists alike. Your articles are consistently great, but this one just jumped to the top of my list. Thank you and keep up the fantastic work.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 6/03, 8:28am)


Post 4

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
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As Rand pointed out, morality is a code of values, to guide you thru your life - it is the understood, not the commanded....

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Post 5

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Wonderful as usual Joe! I'll add this thesis to my tome of Rowland's Wisdom that I've compiled. One funny thing, I notice many of your article topics come from an argument with a friend. I'd hate to be that poor misguided sod from whom you're getting your material. :) Tell me, are you as poetically succinct in your spoken debates as much as your writing?

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Post 6

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Hi Marcus,

I got this definition of Moral Relativism from wikipedia.

Moral relativism is the position that moral propositions do not reflect absolute or universal truths. It not only holds that ethical judgments emerge from social customs and personal preferences, but also that there is no single standard by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth. Many relativists see moral values as applicable only within certain cultural boundaries. Some would even suggest that one person's ethical judgments or acts cannot be judged by another, though most relativists propound a more limited version of the theory.
You asked:
But does the loose acceptance of this idea ever lead someone down the slippery slope of "moral relativism"?
I'm going to try to answer this, as an excercise for myself.

 The loose acceptance (or acceptance without understanding) of any concept is dangerous. Objectivism, as we know does ultimately have a single standard: reality, in the context of the situation in question with your life as the standard value. So, you don't find rules like "always" or "never" but you find guiding principles. So, as long as we keep that in mind, I don't see the danger of a slippery slope. Objectivism stands far apart from Moral Relativism. By considering the context when determining what is the proper path, we aren't shrugging off standards, we are applying them rationally.

Ethan


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Post 7

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Wonderful article. I especially liked the rules or principles focus.

It is always important to ask of good and evil - or any moral principle: To whom? By what standard? What value is gained/kept or lost by it? To what extent?

Using reason to answer those questions and judging principles based on such answers is not Moral Relativism - which raises contexts for whims to a moral principle. Doing that - basing moral principles on life and reason - is selfish in the most morally strict sense of the word.

Michael



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Post 8

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the comments, everyone.

Marcus, the example I gave was an emergency situation, but in this case the principle is widely applicable.  It actually explains why emergency situations behave as they do.  It's not that the "rules" are thrown out, it's that they aren't rules in the first place  They're principles.  And that means the ends are the true test of morality.

As for your question on moral relativism, I do agree with Ethan's post (thanks Ethan!).  If you accept anything loosely, you've got troubles.  If you ignore the fact that life is the standard of value in every situation, and just focus on the fact that moral principles are contextual (call for different actions under different circumstances), it may seem like there are no clear guidelines.  Moral relativism suggests that there is no one "right" system of ethics, and so any system is as good as any other.  What Objectivism says is that there is, but it has to be applied contextually.

Some people believe that without intrinsic values (moral rules are just another type of intrinsic value), you're left with subjectivism.  Moral relativism amounts to a social form of subjectivism.  You agree on an arbitrary ethics, and then it's true for your group or culture or society, but it's not universally true.  As I noted on the recent quote by Stoly accusing SOLO of being hedonistic, the idea was that since we don't accept his culturally conservative intrinsic values, we must not have any values at all.

But here's something that might be interesting.  Intrinsic values (including moral rules) are essentially pointless.  They assert that something is of value, but without reason for it.  It's a non-relative value.  It supposedly has value in and of itself.  How much value?  Impossible to say.  Which means you can't really compare it with other values.  I've written several articles on this issue if anyone is interested.  The point I want to make is that when you have your own set of arbitrary pointless values or rules, and other people have their own, how do you compare them?  You can't.  What's missing is objectivity.  What do you conclude?  That your rules are "better" than theirs?  By what standard?  It's circular, since there is no purpose behind any of them to contrast.  And that's moral relativism!

Moral relativism is not the alternative to intrinsic values.  It's the outcome of them. Because intrinsic values are not objective, they act pretty much like subjective values.  They're claimed to be of value, but no underlying purpose or goal is given.  Moral relativism is the acceptance that all of these ethical systems treat values the same way.  They assert the value, and don't feel any need to prove it.  Which means that cognitively speaking, there's no fundamental difference, and no method of rationally comparing them.  The flaw in moral relativism is that it assumes that those are the only possibilities.  But that's because it accepts their cognitive framework.

Ethan, thanks for the link.  I agree that it is an appropriate example.  You can usually tell when it's appropriate when someone insists you follow the virtues, but isn't able to specify exactly what values are gained or lost by doing so.

Stephen!  Ha!  In this case, it wasn't a friend.  And usually it's someone unique each time.  I don't have any particular person I abuse (in this way).

And I doubt I'm this poetically succinct in person.  It takes me awhile to write these articles.  I spend a lot of time thinking about what the flow will be like, how to integrate the different ideas, if there are any examples that explain it well without being too distracting, etc.  And when I'm dealing with complicated points (and there are a few in this article), putting it down on (virtual) paper helps to present a more systematic approach.


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Post 9

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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Wonderful and succinct as always, Joe.
"Your moral tools are contextual, and must be understood in relationship to your life. And most importantly, the focus is on living your life, not on avoiding immorality."
This is a point that is missed by so many Objectivist even here at Solo.What I most often feel like screaming at people is, "Goddamn it, it's YOUR life. What do YOU want, think, feel about it?"
You are the point. Everything else is just support.

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Post 10

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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I'm sure Joe won't mind if I share a funny private moment here. He asked me to look this article over before he submitted it. I did. First thing I thought was, "Well, this'll get them going about moral relativism." Knowing how difficult folk find it to distinguish contextual absolutism from relativism, I figured it was important to leave nothing to chance. There was one sentence in the original that I thought was problematic. Joe took it out & replaced it with one of the best sentences in the essay. He then asked, did I actually *like* the article? I was stunned that he felt the need to ask, & said, "Of course! Duh! :-)" Then I reminded myself, as we all should from time to time, that folk are not mind-readers, & it's important to give them feedback openly & explicitly rather than assume they have ESP. So I want to say this, publicly, in addition to what I told him privately: Explaining how intrinsicism & subjectivism are two sides of the same coin is not too difficult, & several standard Objectivist texts do it perfectly well. Explaining how objectivity is different from both—and how it works!—has proved much harder to nail. I think Joe's efforts, in this & previous articles, better those of any of the more famous Objectivist writers on the matter. Mainly because he starts with real-life situations, so can't hide behind abstractions. He can, & must, repair to them, of course, but must tie them to reality. In tackling the matter this way, he deliberately sets himself a hard challenge ... & meets it brilliantly. You would look in vain in OPAR to find anything to help you with a real-life dilemma; I know for a fact that folk have light-bulb moments re their personal situations from reading Joe's articles. I hope SOLOists realise the significance of this, & am delighted to see the kind of posts above indicating that indeed they do! :-)

Linz

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Post 11

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Fantastic article!!!
I am currently writing my Philosophy thesis on contemporary virtue ethics, and your distinction between rules and principles clarifies in my mind one of my main lines of argument. 

My paper is a defense of virtue ethics against the charge that, since it is agent-focused and context-dependent, it cannot tell us what to do, it cannot provide an applicable normative theory for how to act.  Part of my argument is to draw this same division between rules and principles; basically, that virtue theories don't give us hard, universal rules, but they do give us principles that we can apply in the various contexts in which we find ourselves.  While my thesis does not focus specifically on the Objectivist ethics, but rather on virtue ethics in general, it does apply to Objectivism, and your article states, briefly and clearly, the core of my argument.

Thank you for a wonderful philosophical presentation.


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Post 12

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
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Nicely done, Joe. Ethics is about excellence. We have to accept that we might get a little nicked up now and again. The perfectionist mindset in ethics is a terrible and impossible burden. The best we can do is to establish guidelines, and then proceed to apply them as best we can to whatever reality comes our way. 

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Post 13

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 11:59pmSanction this postReply
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My god, the horror, the horror! Thank you, Rowlands, for another facile wank-job with a poly-paragraph soporific denouement. Where does one start with such diarrhetic tripe?

Let's try the beginning.

In the "classic Objectivist example," Rowlands forgets to state clearly what will happen to the man if he lies. Will he get away? Will he die? Without that knowledge, we can't know how the man should act. Since his life should be more important than anyone else's (including his family's), his truth-telling would be predicated on that knowledge.

But this is a minor blemish on corpse. Rowlands not only misunderstands the definition of honesty but also misunderstands context in reference to the "mental action" virtues and the "mental/physical action" virtues. I'll try to be more terse than our Mr. Rowlands.

First, philosophically, honesty is focus on reality, the non-evasion of reality. It is NOT about telling the truth. That is why there is NEVER a context to honesty (other than life as the standard). There is never a situational context to it, such as Rowlands' example. You must ALWAYS be honest; you must always stay focused on reality. The man in the classic example must be honest about his predicament; he must stay focused on reality and do the honest thing: Lie (if necessary, to save his life, first, and the life of others, if possible).

Second, I've been seeing over and over in Rowlands' class assignments and other articles or posts (such as Ethan's) the ejaculations over "context." Yep, gotta have it sometimes. Nope, these guys don't know what the frick//flock/fuck they're talking about. The virtues that involve only mental action (honesty, independence, pride) require NO context. They should be practiced ALL the time -- because they incur no repercussions in reality that could harm the rational person. The only "context" one keeps in mind with these virtues is that it is life that they preserve and promote -- but that never changes the fact that you always practice them. Two virtues of mental and physical action (productivity and justice) require context insofar as the situation (context) may require a postponement or cessation of productivity or justice (such as not telling your boss he's full of shit until you've got another job lined up). These last two virtues DO require context. (The virtue of integrity requires mental and physical action but does NOT require context. We should stay integrated (practice what we think) all the time.)

Rowlands, Ethan et al keep dragging the context-of-knowledge truism kicking and screaming into their bubble worlds of virtues -- with Rowlands repeating ad nauseum the bromide "values and virtues" must be connected and "rules and principles" are different. No shit. Wank. Wank. Yawn. Snooze.

Oh, yes, before I go, let me spank these guys a bit (down, Jason!) for their dirty little insider snickers on two other threads:

The thread that Ethan refers to in Post 3 (http://solohq.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/1112.shtml)
on Barbara Branden concerns my posts on how Barbara should've told the truth to her dying mother. The higher value in that exchange was Barbara's pride, not her mother's wish to know a lie.

As far as Rowlands' reference to the "morally perfect" thread, he's back at his strawman building. Anyone reading that thread knows that we discussed the potential of being perfectly virtuous with values as the goal of the perfection. Rowlands relies on your trust in his honesty that you will not go check the facts for yourself on that thread. Be my guest. Bad boy, Joe.

(Edited by David Elmore on 6/04, 12:50am)


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Post 14

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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My god, the horror, the horror! Thank you, Rowlands, for another facile wank-job with a poly-paragraph soporific denouement. Where does one start with such diarrhetic tripe?

 
This erudite ejaculation suggests to me, "Now here is someone who can help me to learn about ethics!"  

 
In the "classic Objectivist example," Rowlands forgets to state clearly what will happen to the man if he lies. Will he get away? Will he die? Without that knowledge, we can't know how the man should act. Since his life should be more important than anyone else's (including his family's), his truth-telling would be predicated on that knowledge.

The whole point in ethics is that we do not know what will happen. Principles are for us to apply to our own particular experiences. You are also mistaken that the man's life ought to be more important to him than his family's. That's up to him.


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Post 15

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 1:14amSanction this postReply
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It wouldn't bother me that much if when really stupid people come to this site and asked questions or raised arguments, they did it with at least some semblance of civility and acknowledgement that they aren't all that bright (heh - like that's ever going to happen.) But this latest from Elmore deserves at least a little comment.

Guy - you're a rationalistic idiot. You are so wrong over and over that it pains me to see anyone respond to you. It's just one of those things in life that idiots never seem to realize that they're idiots -- or maybe they do, and that is why they get so belligerent and offensive, to scare off people from calling them on their nonsense.

You are confusing honesty with objectivity. Virtues are principles. Principle are by their nature action-oriented, not merely reactionary. There is no mental/physical dichotomy -- no virtue is merely mental -- they are all ultimately aimed at the physical, life. And everything but the most basic axioms is contextual -- unless you are omniscient, perhaps?

I bet there are lots of people who would like to debate you further on www.SoloRejects.com. I'm certainly not interested. I would rather engage someone with little philosophical knowledge who seeks the truth, than someone such as yourself who only seems interested in attacking greatness.

Post 16

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 1:42amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Bravo for this article!

Mr Elmore,

Your Post #13 is based on fallacies practically from the outset:

Since his life should be more important than anyone else's (including his family's), his truth-telling would be predicated on that knowledge.

That isn't necessarily true - the point can come where it is acceptable to lay down your own life to save your valued loved ones. I don't remember the exact quote but I'm sure Rand said that if her husband was about to be shot, she would try to jump in front of him and take the bullet. Non-sacrificially.

As to the stuff about honesty, Joe is talking about honesty in the sense of being honest in your dealings with others. And he is correct that it would not be virtuous to be honest with someone who wanted to kill people you cared about when that person asked you where the people he wants to kill were.

I was going to be more detailed, but I just saw Jeff's post, so I'll leave it at that.

MH


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Post 17

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 2:12amSanction this postReply
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Jell L,

LOLOLOLOLOLOL...

www.SoloRejects.com????

Oh my God... the pain... LOLOLOLOL...

Hey David - Dayamm!!!!! 
Wank. Wank. Yawn. Snooze.
I can't stop laughing!

Let me see now... ahem... LOLOLOL... er... You don't like Joe too much, do you?

(tears streaming down)

Michael


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Post 18

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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David, just a couple of questions so we can understand your position. 
 
1)  Would you always--without exception--tell the truth, even if telling a lie to criminal would save the life of you or your family? 
 
2)  Would you ever put yourself in harms way (take a bullet) for another person?
 
3)  Can one ever lie for the purpose of self-preservation and/or protecting loved ones from mortal danger?
 
 
I am sure that you have thought about these things long and hard and have come to your own positions, as have most people here.  I am just curious as to why you hold such rigid views on the subject.  I keep sensing a "Thou shalt not lie"  commandment coming from you irregardless of context. Are there any exceptions?
 
I know that there are people in my life (3 of them) that I would compromise honesty if it were necessary to save their lives. I think this is true for many other people around here as well.  Is it true for you?

 
And does the fact that I value certain people more than an abstract principle of honesty make me a bad objectivist?  I don't think so.  Love, as you know, is about exception making.
 
Kat

 
 
 




Post 19

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
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MH,

Regarding:
I don't remember the exact quote but I'm sure Rand said that if her husband was about to be shot, she would try to jump in front of him and take the bullet. Non-sacrificially.

I think it was during an interview with Phil D., and she explained that if he was killed (under such circumstances) that she would not want to go on living. (But that's also just from memory.)

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